NH Voters Thought McCain Opposed the Iraq War?

James Bovard, January 09, 2008

CNN crunched the exit poll data from yesterday’s New Hampshire primary and found that “among the 34 percent [of Republican primary voters] who said they disapproved of the war, McCain had a wide advantage over the GOP field — even over Texas Rep. Ron Paul, the sole advocate of a U.S. withdrawal in the Republican field.” (hat tip to Think Progress).

Perhaps such voters did not realize the temporal difference between exiting Iraq “now” (in Ron Paul’s case) versus 10,000 years from now (in McCain’s case, according to his comment on CBS’s Face the Nation last week).

McCain has rarely missed a chance to grovel at Bush’s feet to support the Iraq war.

Why were so many voters who claimed to oppose the war so ignorant?




167 Responses to “NH Voters Thought McCain Opposed the Iraq War?”

  1. You have got it so right, Ted. Also, it is not so much that my fellow Americans, especially Republicans, are against war, they just don't like LOSING a war, like they perceive is Bush's doing. Maybe, a lot of McCain voters buy into McCain as a war winner.

    There is a recent video showing how easy it is to tamper with the votingbox, and throw an election. NH election officials know this, and know how shady is their private contractor, and yet…. If there is to be a future for young Americans, they have got to fight back.

  2. amen, bruthren….anyone not voting for Ron Paul is either uninformed
    misinformed
    disinformed
    stupid
    sadistic
    or delusional

  3. I saw this too while looking at the exit polls.

    WTF?!?

  4. Maybe there really is something to the election fraud rumors. How does an anti-war state vote FOR the leading war monger in the Republican party?

    I don’t get it.

  5. Was Ron Paul in the NH primary? You wouldn’t know it from the papers and TV.

    What’s going on?

  6. It’s not fraud. It’s stupidity.

    Your average New Hampshire Republican is so stupid that the last data point they remember about John McCain is that he ran against Bush in the 2000 primary. They still consider McCain the anti-Bush. Bush is inextricably tied to the war. These morons ASSUME McCain is anti-war, because they still consider him anti-Bush.

  7. David Weigel has a nice article on the many missteps of the Ron Paul campaign and the rEVOLution in NH. Add this to the top of the list. How does Ron Paul lose this antiwar voting bloc to McCain of all people? Obviously, this key voting bloc was mishandled by the Ron Paul campaign people. With a few hard hitting commercials on the Iraq war disaster, Ron Paul could have easily moved into third place (and gained alot of media attention) while John McCain probably falls to second (probably dropping out of the race).

  8. There are only 2 possible explanations for this phenomenon. The first is that the people are stupid. The second is that the election was rigged.

    As for the first explanation, there are alot of stupid people in the United States of America. They vote based on emotion, the candidate’s looks, how he dresses, the sound of his voice, and many other irrelevant things. They do not vote based on knowledge and objective analysis.

    As for the second explanation, I just wonder if we had paper ballots what the results would be. I have a sneaky suspicion they would be different. Needless to say, voting machines can be manipulated.

    In any event, the American political system is a joke.

  9. the.corp.isn’t.going.to.let.Ron.Paul.win.they.are.afaird.of
    Paul,its.up.to.the.people.to.get.his.message.out.call.radio
    stations.newspapers.your.friends.gas.staions.stores.people
    on.the.street,get.off.your.ass.and.get.to.work.you.wontJhon.Mcain.in.By.hell.lets.kick.some.as,we.can.do.it

  10. People are surprised by this revelation? Of course, a large portion of the American people are extremely stupid. Many of us have known about the stupidity of the American people for a long time. This is not news!

    Has it ever occurred to anyone besides me that many people (especially with regard to politics) want to be lied to and manipulated? Has it ever occurred to anyone that these people don’t think by choice?

  11. I wonder if it crossed those so called “anti-war” McCain supporter’s minds that if McCain has his way those same people that voted for him will soon be joining those troops in Iraq. I they haven’t thought of that then they could be in for a big surprise!

  12. Two things:

    1) Most Americans still believe Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, so it’s easy to believe they are also ill-informed about McCain’s pro-eternal-warfare position. Even if they believe they are anti-Bush/anti-war now, most Americans are anti-citizens. They are so anti-intellectual and no-nothingist that they seem to actively avoid learning anything new.

    2) Ron Paul’s people are fighting against this mentality, so one can’t expect much progress, it would seem. On the other hand, spending their time running after Fox hosts is a waste of energy and doesn’t do anything politically to educate and recruit people. Smart community organizing means finding leaders at the neighborhood level, identifying and educating those who are sympathetic to the cause, and getting them involved in educating those who look up to them. This takes time, organization, and commitment at an interpersonal level. Saul Alinsky did it decades ago. It works in union organizing; it’s what Barack Obama learned in Chicago. Until people get up from behind their computers and start doing this work, the current crop of Republican and Democratic candidates will continue to win. Learn something from the traditional left.

  13. Don’t forget that about half of the population is more stupid than the average person :) Moreover, the average US person is not a genius either..

  14. Two answers. Ignorance and lack of money.

    Most Americans are surprisingly stupid. I have read a number of times that at the height of the Vietnam war, most Americans couldn’t even find the country on a map or globe. In contrast to Europeans who are often, bilingual or even multilingual and have studied other countries histories, and travelled to them the average American is ignorant of geography, history and geopolitics. How many American soldiers in Iraq can speak Arabic and understand the culture there? Americans tend to be unilingual, less travelled and self-absorbed. A frat-party beer guzzling weekend in Tijuana doesn’t make you a world traveller I’m afraid.

    The other reason is money. Ron Paul hasn’t got it like the establishment candidates do and can’t get out his message as easily or frequently or as far. He is swimming against the tide in a game that is already stacked against him.

  15. Today my glass is half full.

    In New Hampshire, Ron Paul won 18,303 votes.

    Granted, I wish he won, but it’s not too bad.

  16. I’m afraid that may as close to the truth as anything, mainly because very little else makes any sense.

  17. Well its quite simply why New Hampshire residents missed that simple fact, they are all geriatrics, probably are all Alzheimer patients with comprehension, vision, speech and other motor impairments. Its probably not very wise to entrust raving homocidal lunatics such as the Jesus Loonies or dithering old farts who can’t remember their names let alone understand what the damn politician is saying then, with the power to determine the destiny of the US.

  18. How strange, the fate of the country, nay indeed the world, lies in the hands of racist rednecks, barely alive retarded pensioners and insane blood thirsty kill-them-all Evangelists. Wow!

  19. The results of events in both Iowa and New Hampshire validate my long-held cynicism about Ron Paul’s prospects. It comes as no surprise that he has done so poorly and we can expect more of the same before he finally drops out of the race. As a majority here have stated, Americans are both zoologically stupid and congenitally lazy and belligerent. That said, I can honestly say that there was nothing wrong with either Ron’s message or the way he conducted his campaign. The simple (and for us libertarians, painful) truth is that the overwhelming majority of Americans do not believe in the limited government, non-interventionist, constitutionally- based philosophy centered on natural law and private property rights that is the nation’s foundational philosophy and that is at the core of Ron’s ethos. The majority of Americans are jingoistic, xenophobic, belligerent, and dependent on some element of the State for a significant share of their basic needs, Republican (that’s with a capital “R”) rhetoric to the contrary. It’s past time that libertarians face up to this fact and abandon any notion of electing one of their fellows to a significant public office, especially the presidency. It’s NOT going to happen.

    Meanwhile, fasten your seat belts for a very bumpy ride for the foreseeable future. The Chinese curse is in full force: We are indeed all going to live through some very interesting times in the near future.

  20. oh did you?

  21. I don’t blame them. They don’t get news they get infotainment in sound byte form. This is another sign that the world needs Antiwar.com, especially Antiwar Republican voters ;)

  22. Or Corrupt with defense contracts,,,

  23. There are only 2 possible explanations for this phenomenon. The first is that the people are stupid. The second is that the election was rigged.

    Looks like it might be the latter,,Sutton County 0 votes Ron Paul. Votersfrom Sutton who voted for him called and oh,,,he had 31 sorry, typo

  24. Probably the “opposed to the war” question was interpreted, as someone has mentioned, as “opposed to the disaster of the war.” McCain is associated with “really fighting the war” and right now the mainstreammedia says very definitely that the surge is working – that Bush in ditching Rumsfeld and implementing the surge finally woke up and now things are better mililtarily. So it makes sense by this interpretation for the Republicans “opposed” to the bad policies to back McCain.

    In other words, we may disagree with them, but they aren’t stupid.

    As to succeeding with the electorate. It is quite likely that a majority of Americans don’t favor a libertarian policy or going back to the gold standard, minimal government, etc. So if the only way you can oppose the outrageous current militarism and empire-building is to go for pure libertarianism, you have a hard sell. What does make sense is to ask voters to oppose the extreme empire mililtarism – it would be a great improvement to roll back to say Reagan, or as far back as is feasible – but certainly to reverse the recent trend. It would really be a good thing. It wouldn’t be ideal from say a libertarian point of view but what is happening now is bad not just because a libertarian would oppose it but because almost any decent American should be able to oppose it.

    The situation is very bad and very dangerous right now – as antiwar.com does a good job of pointing out. We need to persuade a wide range of Americans that this isn’t a good thing that has been happening. We shouldn’t take an approach which says if you don’t buy “libertarianism” then we don’t want your support for getting us out of this militarism. Libertarians may feel that only their analysis is right but right now, the situation is bad and we need to encourage a wide spread recognition of that.

  25. In Iraq? Well, let’s put it this way, the US forces thought they were making extensive use of Israeli Arabic language “translators”.

    Indeed, how many Israelis in sanitized uniforms were at Abu Gharaib?

    Meanwhile, I have it from a very reliable source that the Army language schools had already shifted emphasis to Farsi at least two years ago.

  26. So what kind of electronic ballot system is being used in NH?

    …and what’s with the Siebel Edmonds story continued to be ignored?

    …and what’s with that weird Ron Paul Newsletter flap?

    (and where’s Paris Hilton at? will she survive without the billions?)

  27. Bovard,

    “Why were so many voters who claimed to oppose the war so ignorant?”

    Oh, that’s only because you haven’t had an opportunity as yet to teach them what your specialty, liberty, is all about by censoring them at your blog. Its right after that that they’ll start thinking straight, trust me.

  28. Why do the voters make such stupid choices? Or, in other words why do the best people not win? I remember once running for a city council seat. My opponent (who won) did some clever things – like going to the nursing homes and assisted living centers in town and helping the seniors with their absentee ballots. The average libertarian wouldn’t think of doing that -too much morality. Unfortuneately that is Ron Paul’s problem.

  29. Why the results in New Hampshire? Easy, just read the book, “Attention Deficit Democracy”. It explains so much of this.

  30. Has it ever occurred to anyone besides me that many people (especially with regard to politics) want to be lied to and manipulated? Has it ever occurred to anyone that these people don’t think by choice?

    Yep, and it’s a fact that I’ve attempted to explain to various “American democracy” enthusiasts for a while now. I’m now simultaneously experiencing profound despair and profound vindication. I’ve abandoned all hope in humanity. If people are this easily indoctrinated then “democracy” and “liberty” are meaningless. A democracy can only function when the majority of its members are intellectually as well as politically autonomous and have some sense of social cohesion. Democracy on the American model, based as it is on myopia, patronage, and jingoism, is the outgrowth of a thoroughly corrupt society that teaches its subjects that anything done in the service of Pax Americana is permissible and that “freedom” includes freedom from the obligation to use one’s rational faculties for anything beyond the procurement of basic needs. Democracy, in its plenary sense, can never take hold in America as long as the country is dominated by a culture of conformity that rewards the suspension of critical thought and belittles and ostracizes all those who think differently. The Empire is rotten to the core, and one good kick should send the whole fetid edifice crashing down.

  31. There are many uninformed people in any society.

    However there are many informed people as well.

    Most of the informed people who are antiwar do not support Ron Paul.

    For the most part, this is because they are neither Libertarians nor paleocons.

    The paleocons are not worth discussing.

    With regard to the Libertarians:

    I was once a socialist, and I am now a middle-aged antiwar Democrat.

    Regardless of the ideas I held at any given time, I always entertained the possibility that my core ideas might be wrong.

    Do Libertarians ever entertain the possibility their core ideas might be, in any way, wrong?

  32. “There are many uninformed people in any society.

    However there are many informed people as well.

    Most of the informed people who are antiwar do not support Ron Paul.”

    Who do they support then?

  33. 2008 New Hampshire state motto: “Live Free or vote for John McCain”

  34. I would’ve supported Kuninich if he had raised the money Paul had. Some Democrats just don’t seem to realize there isn’t a viable peace candidate on the Democratic side. I see Independents in NH failed to realize this as well as Paul came in third among Independents for Republicans. So much for change.
    Hillary McCain 08. Might as well run on the same ticket.

  35. Maybe the anti-war-in-Iraq Republicans who backed McCain over Paul did so because they preferred McCain on *other* issues?

    Even among Republicans, not everyone opposed to the war is a libertarian!

  36. This claim that the American people are 'stupid' is nonsense. The American people – every single one – knew damn well that Bush was operating torture chambers and secret gulags BEFORE the American people rewarded Bush with a second term in power, back in 2004. Every single American KNEW.

    Americans may be stupid for cheering on Bush's torture chambers, the Iraqi genocide, etc, but they're not so stupid that they don't know what's really going on. The same reality applies to McCain. Those people who voted for McCain this last primary know full well what McCain would do if the lunatic found his way into power – and they approve – just like they did last time with Bush. Just you wait and see.

    God Bless America.

  37. “Do Libertarians ever entertain the possibility their core ideas might be, in any way, wrong?”

    How can opposing the INITIATION of FORCE be considered wrong once one recognizes that it is wrong, both morally and as a counterproductive policy?

    Opposition to the initiation of force or fraud, coupled in a belief that every individual owns their own body are the core beliefs of Libertarians. If you ever came to this conclusion, it would be difficult to ever go back to socialism. You claim to be an ex-socialist, but are you really?

    Finally what bothers me are those who are willing to sell-out on opposing the war, because maintaining this or that government benefit is a higher priority with them. That’s why the Democrats shafted their constituents on the war issue in 2006 — because the voters were willing to suspended their disbelief that the Democrats would fail to heed their mandate (ending the war) in exchange for this or that social policy.

    Anyone who has followed the Democratic Party frontrunner candidates closely knows that none of them will initiate a fundamental change in America’s foreign policy. You think Hillary or Obama will end the war? C’mon Charlie Brown, you can trust Lucy, she WON’T pull the football away THIS time!

  38. “Disapprove of the war” can mean one of two things:

    1). You really don’t like the war period.

    2). You like the war but you don’t like the way its being fought.

    Most New Hampshireites chose the latter. They support the war, they just don’t like the way the Administration is handling it. In McCain, they see someone who’s beeing upfront with them in saying that we’ll be in Iraq for 100 years and they believe he was a strategy to win it.

    Most GOP voters beleive in the war and have tied themselves to it. Fine then. They can die with it as well. They deserve it.

  39. and yes, isn’t it amazing to wonder if highly educated people in Iowa and New Hampshire erroneously concluded, after the appropriate amount of lies and propaganda and irrational jingoism (of course), that the billary group is a peace loving pack of angels.

  40. is it not possible that the best way to analyze a candidate is to, first of all, go to his website and find out what he actually believes in and who he/she has picked to be among his staff??? the best way to judge the character of a candidate is to look at his history of voting, his staff and many other relevant aspects of judging character and common decency. why is it that paul supporters are the only people in this country that can make such critical assessments??? we are doomed to be always right.

  41. Unfortunately, with these contests, people tend to follow above all a herd mentality. People may totally disagree with McCain on the issues, but they vote for him anyway because the MSM tout McCain as a “winner” which “everybody” is voting for. To break this tendency, you have to target your voting blocs and fire them up about the issue in question. Antiwar sentiment in the Republican party is a minority position, but it is still a large voting bloc which Dr. Paul can and should own.

  42. It is called voter fraud. Even American’s are not THAT stupid. These people opposed to the war voted for McCain because Diebold software took their votes for Ron Paul and gave them to McCain.

  43. Only if you kill "the resistance" off first. I would imagine that this be very hard to do, except at the cost of a great many "Fallujahs", which will own the US a permanent seat in Club Warcrime, as opposed to the current trial period.

  44. 10,000 years? I heard McCain said a million years.

    Why not 4.5 billion, the half life of depleted uranium?

  45. It is telling, indeed, on how bad things are now that someone can point to the Reagan administration as an example of good governance. It was the Gipper’s foreign adventures in Lebanon and Grenada, as well as his proxy terrorist wars in Afghanistan and Central America, that paved the way for the militarist interventionism of Bush I, Clinton and Bush II. (And let’s not forget how much of a “friend” Ronnie was to good ol’ Saddam Hussein, back in the day.)

    I also find it amusing that some Libertarians dump on Fox News despite the fact that Rupert Murdoch’s media empire is an examplar of the capitalist system that Ron Paul and his cadres laud as the One True Way. If Paul can’t get a fair shake from Fox then all he has to do is run to the “competition,” right?

    As for the folks in NH, I call to mind a quote from Brain Griffin: “Undecided voters are the biggest idiots on the planet.”

  46. There is very serious evidence of vote fraud. We’re in huge trouble if our next election is decided by the men behind the vote counting. Look at the evidence:

    Pre Election polls put Obama ahead by 8.3%
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nh/new_hampshire_democratic_primary-194.html

    USA Today Exit Polls predict Obama win
    http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/01/exit-poll-obama.html

    Guardian Exit Polls predict Obama win
    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/usa/2008/01/exit_polls_obama_and_mccain_ah.html

    By Machine Count
    Clinton: 39.595%
    Obama: 36.386%

    By Hand Count
    Obama: 38.785%
    Clinton: 34.703%

    Vote Fraud Confirmed in Sutton, New Hampshire
    http://www.ronpaulwarroom.com/?p=655

    One man programs 81% of New Hampshire voting machines
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiiaBqwqkXs

  47. The vote totals are fraudulent.In national elections the votes have probably been manipulated for at least the last eight years.The McCain campaign was dead before New Hampshire and the Clinton campaign was all hype.The power structure would have us believe that there has been some kind of a political miracle in New Hampshire.It is impossible for the Paul campaign to have received so much money from individual contributors and to have racked up so few votes in both Iowa and New Hampshire.People are not stupid.They understand that electronic voting can be used to track their individual votes.If their e-mail and phone calls can be tracked so can their votes.People have jobs,mortgages and families to protect and they are afraid.There may not be many people vocalizing it but they understand that things have gotten out of hand.The people running America are very bad.They don’t believe in democracy or human rights or the rule of law.People understand this in America and elsewhere,I suspect.The American People don’t quite know what to do.It is obvious to them by now that they can’t vote these people out of power.There is one thing that I can tell you for sure and that is that the governments of Russia and China understand what is happening in America and that is why Russia is upgrading it’s nuclear arsenal and why China is pumping a lot of money into it’s navy,including new aircraft carriers.The American High Command is intent on subjugating Islam which means keeping 25% of the world’s population under threat.I believe that both Russia and China find it within their strategic interests to make this as difficult for the United States to accomplish as possible.

  48. The New Hampshire Republicans think that “War is Peace”.

  49. Based on what exactly? I’m sorry to inform you, Fluffy, but you are exactly the kind of stupid American we’re talking about here. You say it’s not fraud. Based on what, exactly? The fact that the votes are tabulated on easily manipulated machines, and that the integrity of the entire elections rests on the integrity of one man, John Silvestro, a private contractor? The surpirse, come from behind, unprecedented win by the establishment candidate? The way the exit polls and hand counts match the pre-election polls, but contradict the Diebold machines?

    Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiiaBqwqkXs

    It can happen here, it has happened here, it just happened here again, and it will continue to happen here until more people WAKE UP!

  50. How do you know he didn’t get third place? Honestly, I’m asking, how do you, personally, know that Ron Paul did not in fact get third place in New Hampshire? I don’t THINK he did, but I don’t KNOW if he didn’t, because I have no reason to have any faith in the process by which these votes are counted.

  51. Pre Election polls put Obama ahead by 8.3%

    USA Today Exit Polls predict Obama win

    Guardian Exit Polls predict Obama win

    By Machine
    Clinton: 39.595%
    Obama: 36.386%

    By Hand
    Obama: 38.785%
    Clinton: 34.703%

    Vote Fraud Confirmed in Sutton, New Hampshire

    One man programs 81% of New Hampshire voting machines

  52. Major allegations of vote fraud in New Hampshire:
    http://www.bostonnow.com/blogs/boston911truthorg/2008/01/09/major-allegations-of-vote-fraud-in-new-hampshire

  53. It’s downright depressing to see the collective bunch of traitors, criminals and pathological liers who aspire to lead the ” free world “. Dr.Paul is the only one who is not beholden to israel. That’s why the zionist msm media is so scared of him. I pray the average American starts to hear his message before it’s too late.

  54. Shhhhh, rather than unite with each other and demand verifiable elections, we’re supposed to be bitching and moaning about how stupid everyone else is.

  55. Ding Ding Ding!

  56. Remember Frank Luntz!

    Maybe, just maybe, “disapproval of the war” really meant when they were asking voters “disapproval of the way the war is being conducted”.

    So that people who voted for 100-years-in-iraq-mcCain are not anti-war, they just don’t like the “low” casualty rate.

  57. Individuals should be at the core of every human philosophy.

    Individuals create social/economic/political institutions. They also create machines.

    Neither institutions nor machines should “have a life of their own”. They are either useful to individuals or they are not. If they are useful they should be protected.

    I opposed the Iraq war from the start. The Democrats do not emphasize the war enough, but on the whole they are more opposed to the war than the Republicans. The war was started by the Republicans.

    The war is a major issue; it is simply not the only issue. I am aware enough of the core anarchist ideas of Rothbard to know I would never support his descendants. I am not in favor of privatized police and fire departments. Anarchy would be the worst possible society.

  58. The bottom line is that the successful politician prostitutes themselve to get elected. Would Paul turn on the water works (ala Hillary), jabber endlessly like a parrot over 9-11 and global fear (ala Rudy), or get all emotional about “CHANGE” without telling you what “change” he had in mind (ala Obama)? No way – Ron Paul is a rational man of integrity who would rather be right than President. The system rewards those who fulfill some role or need of the crowd and are willing to be molded for that role by clever handlers. Can you imagine Thomas Jefferson getting elected today?

  59. Because the people in the “live free or die” state have decided to choose the latter ?

  60. Because McCain didn’t say the war should last that long. He said we would have a presence there for a very very long time. Big difference.

  61. To add to the polling data post above, according to the MSNCB NH exit polling, McCain voters “somewhat disapprove” of the war in Iraq by 49% compare this to Paul voters at 10%; McCain voters “strongly disapprove” of the war in Iraq by 38% compared to Paul voters at 26%. Overall, the majority of McCain voters actually opposed the Iraq war with 33% approving and 44% disapproving. Bottomline, Paul could have done much better with the antiwar vote and coasted to a third place win easily, while McCain drops to second and he loses the traditional NH bounce, perhaps knocking him out of the race or setting up that scenario.I know the Paul campaign doesn’t like emotional or negative ads , but you got amazing material with the Iraq War. You could have commercial with a former vet that lost his legs in Iraq endorsing Ron Paul. A mother (Cindy Sheehan?) who lost her son endorsing Ron Paul. You could talk about how the Iraq war has fomented terrorism against the US. You could talk about the trillions of dollars that have been blown with this war. You could about the 1 million Iraqi cilivians who are dead because this war. And so on.

  62. Then, even if it goes against the good doctor’s grain, Dr. Paul had better start getting negative—pronto.

  63. this is exactly what happened when Fred Thomspon first came on the scene inthis race. People are projecting their own ideas of who Mcain is on to him. he is not any sort of Maverick

  64. I absolutely agree. The Paul campaign doesn’t seem up to the task of informing the people. They need to run 60 second radio ads that say something. All his political life the Doc has spoken the truth, and has been right on. Now, he needs to put this wisdom to the people. He needs to talk about the dollar drop, the stock mkt meltdown, why oil is at $100 a barrel. Why the US has over 750 bases around the world while our own bridges crumple. How both parties have conspired to take our civil liberties. The campaign needs to appeal to dems and independents who are mad as hell at the dems they elected in ’06. Like a good college football coach, the campaign needs to put Ron in a position to win. Play to his strengths. The US is entering the new dark ages and only Ron Paul has the answers to prevent it. And they need to watch the vote fraud and make a lot of noise about it. This is it, folks. I don’t think we get a another chance to stop tyranny.

  65. When Dr. Paul goes into a debate against John McCain, Dr. Paul’s organizers should know that it is not a debate. Dr. Paul has to pound McCain into the ground because of McCain’s war stance. That’s all McCain has for him because he is inept in all other matters. He just does not grasp the overall duties of a president. I repeat, stop playing nice debate and the organizers have to pounce on McCain through the radio, tv, letters to editors (constantly).

    Make all the excuses possible for New Hamphsire voters. Excuses are useless. They were sucked in because we dide not show them the truth about McCain. There is plenty of time but no more big mistakes allowed.

  66. Also, Dr. Paul is making positive great speeches. He is doing his job and, he, too, must go after McCain by addressing their different positions.

    Never in my lifetime have I seen a good guy beat the guy that is king of the hill by points. DR. Paul and his organizers must pound McCain into the ground because of his prowar stance.

  67. It may be that the responsibility to be an informed critically thinking citizen in a democracy is too intellectually challenging for most people. In that case, except for brief periods of freedom, not only America, but the rest of the world is doomed to perpetual servitude under the heel of a dictator.

  68. Because I hail from the once-great state of Connecticut (that’s where Joseph Isidore Lieberman reigns supreme), I can tell you what happened to the voters of New Hampshire. They have been exposed to the contagion of Joseph Isidore Lieberman!!! Surely those of us who know Lieberman’s racist/zionist, warmongering and torture advocacy know exactly what he’s up to especially when he was filmed standing in back of McCain during “Mac’s” appearance in New Hampshire. Just as a ventriloquist with a dummy, Lieberman was actually telling McCain what to say and those who voted for “Mac” will recognize their MISTAKE. However, the rest of the voting public can be warned that a vote for McCain is a vote for eternal war, torture, and money and arms for racist/zionist Israel. Lieberman’s curse captured Connecticut and be assured that the voters here would not knowingly elect or re-elect him if they realized exactly what he represents; that is, unless there is a sizeable population of like-minded Israeli-firsters living here and I PRAY that is not so!!! The key to prevention of this occurrence is a USA-first press core which would expose Lieberman for what he is. Since it’s quite possible that most of the media (written and spoken) is owned by Israeli-firsters, We the People must DEMAND the truth. That’s our only chance. Otherwise we will continue to be slaves to people like Joseph Isidore Lieberman!!!

    Regards,

  69. This comment sounds exactly like your average Democratic message: It says absolutely nothing.

    What are your “core ideas”? The Democrats have seemed to have only one core idea for quite some time: Get elected. They jump on every bandwagon political fad (e.g. global warming, etc.) without ever standing for anything except continued expansion of the federal government.

  70. No we’re just not a bunch of racists.

  71. The consumer, not the state should be the one who decides what is useful and what is not. They are the ones who pay for it after all. You seem content in letting others decide what is done with your own taxes. I think you should be allowed to decide.

    True Rothbardian anarchy may never be attainable in our lifetimes, even if Ron Paul became president. That would be something the individual states will have to work out. But how much Federal government do you desire? Ron Paul would cut the size of the Fed first and foremost — a direct and inescapebable effect of ending the policy of interventionism.

    Foreign Policy is THE number one domain the President (whoever it is) has influence over, much more so than any perceived needed social programs. If the war isn’t important enough to the Democrats in their campaign, you can bet your bottom dollar it won’t be of any consequence to them when they are elected — when they will have the most power over that very issue!

    You want to believe the Democrats will change things. But the only thing they will change is the image of the same beast. If a Democrat is elected and the war continues or worsens (along with loss of civil liberties) what will you say or do then? “Oh yeah just wait in 2/4 years we’ll fix that.” Or for that matter will you say this if a Republican other than Ron Paul is elected? Either way, 4 more years of war will doom America, let alone 6, 8, or 100.

    Good grief, you don’t want to vote for Paul because you are afraid of one day seeing privatized municipal services? Ron Paul will have virtually NO influence over something so local!

    And who cares about following the Constitution anyways?

  72. I also find it amusing that some Libertarians dump on Fox News despite the fact that Rupert Murdoch’s media empire is an examplar of the capitalist system that Ron Paul and his cadres laud as the One True Way. If Paul can’t get a fair shake from Fox then all he has to do is run to the “competition,” right?

    Wrong. Rupert Murdoch is no “capitalist” in the true sense of the word. He is what is commonly called a “state capitalist,” one who uses his wealth to buy the force of political institutions as an instrument for expanding his own economic interests at the expense of potential competitors and the public. Murdoch’s use of the legal system to “persuade” the courts not to label his media empire a monopoly is good example of this. As for “competition” with CNN and MSNBC, the tone, content, and focus of each is indistinguishable from the other. Yet another by-product of the state capitalist system that creates de facto monopolies in certain markets.

  73. New Hampshire’s independent minded, original thinking, libertarian spirit is a myth.

    Conformist, expedient and complacent status quo voters of the first order.

    We are becoming a nation of sheep and New Hampshire leads the way.

  74. Isn’t that kind-of what makes it an average?

  75. Wrong. Rupert Murdoch is no “capitalist” in the true sense of the word.

    Let me get this straight — you’re saying Rupert Murdoch is NOT a capitalist???

    That sounds just as silly as the die-hard Trots who insist that what was practiced in the Soviet Union wasn’t socialism “in the true sense of the word.”

    Murdoch — a closet commie? If Ron Paul’s supporters actually believe that sort of nonsense, then it is no wonder why his campaign is floundering.

  76. [...] NH Voters Thought McCain Opposed the Iraq War? What happened? And if the Republican base is really this misinformed, how is a candidate that can actually win going to be found? NH Voters Thought McCain Opposed the Iraq War? Wednesday, January 9th, 2008 in News by James Bovard CNN crunched the exit poll data from yesterday’s New Hampshire primary and found that “among the 34 percent [of Republican primary voters] who said they disapproved of the war, McCain had a wide advantage over the GOP field — even over Texas Rep. Ron Paul, the sole advocate of a U.S. withdrawal in the Republican field.” (hat tip to Think Progress). Perhaps such voters did not realize the temporal difference between exiting Iraq ”now” (in Ron Paul’s case) versus 10,000 years from now (in McCain’s case, according to his comment on CBS’s Face the Nation last week). McCain has rarely missed a chance to grovel at Bush’s feet to support the Iraq war. Why were so many voters who claimed to oppose the war so ignorant? [/quote] _____________________________________ ronpaulispeace.com – Ron Paul is Peace for AmericaRon Paul on the Issues – RonPaulLibrary.com [official campaign site] But let it not be said that we did nothing. -Dr. Ron Paul [...]

  77. Wow Jimmy, what a reasonable thing to say.

  78. Um, also reducing poverty through progressive taxation, regulating the businesses and the market, and defending the traditional list of liberal rights, especially freedoms of conscience and speech. Boiling all of that down to the “continued expansion of the federal government” is a little simplistic–the equivalent of saying that all libertarians stand for is letting the poor starve and the rich get richer.

  79. If you have always entertained that your core beliefs may have been wrong, why can’t “paleocons” even be discussed? Antiwar Democrat is an oxymoron. The same crusading faith in government that gives us the welfare state naturally seeks, inevitibly by arms, to create a “democratic” utopia around the world. In that sense neocons never stopped being liberals. Except for Kucinich and Gravel, the democratic candidates are lying about their antiwar credentials. Edwards and Clinton are neck deep in military industrial complex money. Barack is surrounded by war-mongers. They all will maintain a presence in the permanent bases already built in Iraq, they all say they leave nothing off the table against Iran (except Obama, for which the rest attacked him for naivete). Bill Clinton bombed Iraq throughout the 90′s and based on total lies bombed Serbia for 78 days in complete violation of American and international law. Unless you are supporting Kucinich or Gravel you are a dupe if you think you are an antiwar Democrat. The Who were wrong. We will be fooled again and again and again.

  80. It is baffling that Paul hasn’t called for a recount. What’s his problem? I don’t see any downside.

  81. I support McCain and I am against the war. I disagree with him on it, but I do believe he is the best man for the job.

  82. james- why are you a ridiculous person?

  83. Bill, it’s true in one sense that neoconservatives are the logical extension of liberal principles (the emphasis on a certain kind of freedom) to the international sphere. But that caveat, “in one sense,” is important because liberalism embodies a few core principles that are sometimes in conflict. At rock bottom the neoconservatives want to ‘liberate’ people from authoritarianism (which they conflate with the absence of democracy).
    Democrats–especially the anti-war Democrats in whom you do not believe–generally want to limit the the promotion of their brand of freedom in two ways. First, toleration: they believe in respect for other reasonable ideas about justice. Second, realism: they have an appreciation for the practical difficulties involved in military intervention. Neoconservatives deny both of these limiting principles, which is what distinguishes them from Democrats.

  84. Ricardo, thank you for opening my eyes even wider than they already are. By the way, I am not cognizant enough to understand how, as you declare “electronic voting can be used to track their individual votes.” Really? Ugly big brother can now know for sure how we voted? Explain, please.

  85. You speak for me, G.Kurtz.

  86. So true. Such great advise.

  87. You’ve got that right, Maryam.

  88. Absolutely. Paul needs to spend that money on a paper ballot count each time. The establishment psychopaths are cheaters and liars

  89. How can one not think of conspiracy theories having just observed an improbably simultaneous media attack on Ron Paul the day of the New Hampshire campaign? A remarkably successful attack that made him plunge from 14% in the polls to an 8% actual vote? After weeks where we heard very little about Paul from the mass media and beltway “libertarian” bloggers? TNR from the left, Fox News and talk radio from the right, and piling on from beltway “libertarians” who made a point of loudly repeating the TNR smears and dumping Ron Paul on the day of the primary. Your eyes did not deceive you, all this happened. It is not the result of a criminal conspiracy, but if one uses “conspiracy” as a metaphor for social networks of vast complexity, there is a strong sense in which conspiracy theories accurately, if metaphorically, explain what happened.

    The reality behind the conspiratorial metaphor is the social networking between denizens of the Beltway, who sport a wide variety of political labels but are, relative to the rest of the country, a monoculture. These denizens range from the journalists who report the mass media news to various think tank and university scholars. Vast amounts of federal money, that stuff that is taken out of your paycheck with such automatic ease, flow into the Beltway area. Directly and indirectly, almost every person who lives in or near the Beltway depends on the very income tax that Ron Paul declared he would abolish — with no replacement!

    Many of these paycheck vampires call themselves “libertarians” and inspire us with their libertarian rhetoric to support them with our attention, our blog hits, and our tuition money as well as the tax money that already funds them or their friends. But at the first sign of political incorrectness, all these below-the-Beltway “libertarians” have dumped Ron Paul like yesterday’s garbage. Now they can rest easy that they will still be invited to the parties thrown by their lobbyist and government employee and contractor friends, who for a second or two got worried by all those Google searches that Ron Paul might have some influence, resulting in some of them losing their jobs (end the income tax with no replacement?! The guy is obvioiusly a kook, and we don’t invite the supporters of kooks to our parties!). Now everybody around the Beltway can go back to partying at the taxpayer’s expense. All the money will keep flowing in, hooray!

    The lesson millions of young libertarians have now learned from our beltway “libertarians”? Libertarian electioneering is futile. Voting is futile. Democracy is futile. Anybody who actually wants liberty is a kook, as can be proven by their association with kooks. Beltway wonks posing as “libertarians” are happy to write things to inflame your hopes for liberty that they don’t really mean. Then they make sure that we elect the politicians their friends want — the ones that will enslave your future to pay for full social security for Baby Boomers. The ones that will send you off to foreign lands to kill and die. Our Beltway “libertarians” are happy to sell a whole new generation of libertarians down the tubes in order to keep their Beltway friends happy.

  90. Freaking right, formerbeltway.., These beltway party animals, living off the taxpayer, see Ron Paul as their foe.
    Please publish this above analysis. The lowlifes who call Paul a kook, do so because they really do not want change.

  91. You never stated who the,”informed anti-war people who do not support Ron Paul” are supporting John Smith.

  92. “Hillary McCain 08. Might as well run on the same ticket.”

    Amen.
    Over here in central Europe where constitutional “democracy” arrived with conquering armies, folks simply love Obama. They keep asking me whether my countrymen will elect him president. I tell them: No, because Obama is actually a vice presidential candidate. To quote an astute analysis by a famous paleoconservative insider, the War Party plan for next November is to run a dead horse against Hillary. Yes, indeed, the incredible, opinion-defying, digitalized dual “comebacks” of machine products Hillary and McCain in the “Live Free or Die” state probably tell us all we need to know about the democratic selection process. Two cheers for President-to-be Hillary, brought to you by Diebold & friends.

  93. I watched the FOX News Republican debate from South Carolina last night. Except for Paul, the candidates all stand for three things – continued tax cuts for the wealthy, continued/expanded war upon Islam, and continued devotion to Israel. When Ron Paul suggested that it would be in Israel’s benefit if we cut so many close ties with them, the Huckster got real indignant and publically carried on about the depth of his love for Israel. After the debate, FOX interviewded about 25 people who comprised their “audience focus group”. This group said that they thought Fred Thompson was the “winner” and that Ron Paul was “the loser”. I hope that we can save this country by voting in change, but I am afraid that we are going to have to something more drastic – like not paying income taxes and let the beast die.

  94. It’s a mix of both actually.

    Vote fraud alone cannot put someone from 0% to 30%, or from 40% to 0%. If exit polls had Ron Paul at 90% and McCain at the 0% he deserves, even the most hardcore “there are no government conspiracies” type would have to see something went wrong if the result is what they claim it was.

    Vote fraud can and does shift results by up to around 10%. The rest of the vote for the bad guys is largely misinformation (which, of course, is at least in parts the result of fraud as well — fraudulent and holey reporting by the mainstream media), and evildoing (“I can make a profit of nuking Iran, why would I care about Iranians?”).

  95. How about stealing the diebold machines and chucking them over a bridge, Boston Teaparty style? We could dress up ‘like Muslims.’ I could really not give a damn about what the mouth breathers might make of it or Fox News would spin it.

  96. I think New Hampshire residents have not witnessed enough of young men and women come back in caskets from Iraq and Afghanistan or with horrific injuries and burns. Maybe because most of them are geriatrics. Once these geriatrics see New Hampshire towns start seeing entire towns emptied of their young men and women as in Virginia and Ohio and the graveyards become the most visited places every week then NH residents might give their war loving ideas a second thought. They are blind and deaf with American nationalism. They don’t see or hear anything other than Neocon Republican rhetoric. Further with most NH residents enjoying their pensions and social security benefits, they feel they need not have a care in the world. They think the countriy’s many wars are just a CNN or Fox News thrill show. Also they have not a clue how the world economics will impact their comfortable earnings. Once they start to suffer the economic pinch, can’t afford gas, start stocking up on cans and cutting coupons becomes a necessary affair- they just might get it.

  97. Perhaps they would finally learn. After all the Vietnam protests only gained furor when two to three hundred caskets were coming home every week. But don’t be too sure. My years of observation have thought me a golden rule:
    “Whoever underestimates the stupidity of the American public does so at his own peril.”

  98. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear: Rupert Murdoch is a “crony capitalist”, defined as someone who earns his living by co-opting the machinery of state (both through purchase of political patronage and occasional acceptance of taxpayer-furnished largesse) to his advantage at the expense of both his customers and potential competitors, both of whom would otherwise diminish the power of his enterprise without the state and muscle to back him up. Genuine capitalism is based on purely on market forces, which are themselves the [I]voluntary[/I] interactions of individuals who make choices unhindered by any form of state coercion, control, influence, or support. In a society without the force of the State, Murdoch and his media “empire” would diluted to the point of merely being one of dozens, if not hundreds of similar competing outlets that arose due to the demands of the consumer (unfettered by extra-constitutional bureaucracies such as the FCC and FTC, to name just two that are relevant to Murdoch’s operations) and would almost certainly be without sufficient market share to have any meaningful say in denying (or, for that matter, giving excessive and arguably “unfair” or “biased”) coverage to ANY candidate, or any persuasion. Murdoch and his operations no more represent capitalism than the U.S. Postal Service, an organization that would have gone under due to its mismanagement and overpriced, poor quality service but for the backing of the State. Halliburton, Bechtel, and all of the major “defense” contractors, pseudo-corporate extensions of the government, fit the same profile.

  99. Beautifully stated! As for “Beltway Libertarians”, I can think of no more stereotypical of a media organ representing that ilk than Reason magazine, whose editor-in-chief, Nick Gillespie, published a truly disgusting hit piece (disguised as “objective” reporting) on Ron Paul in this month’s hardcopy issue. That was the last straw, solidifying my decision to let my long-time subscription to this pretentious, fraudulent rag lapse at the end of the month. I would encourage any remaining subscribers who truly embrace libertarianism to do the same.

  100. While I agree with those who give credit to voter stupidity, as well as well-timed media attacks, are correct, everyone seems to be missing the fundamental problem with the Ron Paul campaign: self-delusion. As someone who changed registration to Republican (will change back after the California primary) and gave money to the RP campaign, I was certainly infected by the enthusiasm of Paul’s supporters, and was quite impressed by his ability to collect huge sums of money from a large number of people. But even then, I wondered – is enthusiasm a real indication of a real base of electoral support, especially where it was needed? How many of these contributors were even registered Republicans, or thought to switch parties? How much effort was made to get people to do so? Ron Paul’s libertarian (with some paleocon mixed in) philosophy clearly is not the flavor of the month in his own party, and it certainly wasn’t going to draw many Democrats or independents, but for one thing — THE WAR. He should have made it clear that the only electoral anti-war vehicle that was catching on, and therefore that a large number of votes for Paul would change the course of the political debate.

    Now, I only just thought of this, so I can’t blame anyone else for not doing so, but what if Ron Paul were to make joint campaign appearances with Dennis Kucinich, and focused the campaigns away from the personalities and onto the issue of THE WAR and related question of civil liberties? Except in states like New Hampshire, they are not even in competition with each other, since they have closed primaries. The two of them agree on these two issues, and obviously would have to agree to disagree on the rest. It would boost the standing of both campaigns, and get people to look past the the immediate election of a president-king and onto what actually needs to be done. It would mean both campaigns would be looking beyond electing a personality, and focusing on what is needed to make America better.

  101. Richard Vajs writes that after watching the Republican Debate, one of the three main things they care about is our “continued/expanding war on Islam” He says that is one of the main things they stand for.

    I am perplexed. Still perplexed. Maybe you or your friends can shed some light on this for me. Didn’t Islam declare war on us!? Didn’t 3,000 Americans perish in fire and flame while Islamic terrorists shouted “Allah Akbar!” ?

    Have not these Islamo Fascists been attacking us long, long before our intervention in Iraq? Doesn’t Shiek Nassralah of Hezbolah call us the great satan and wish for our demise? Didn’t Bin Laden’s top deputy, Aymin Al Zawahiri say that there would be peace if we just converted to Islam? These are but a few of many examples.

    I’m not looking to pick a fight, I just want to better understand the liberal/progressive mindset on this issue. I feel like you guys are telling me that the world is flat, while I know it to be round. So maybe you or your friends could kindly shed some light on this.

  102. Why is it so hard to believe that a large portion of anti-war advocates are ignorant?

    The truly weird thing is that foreign policy right wing fanatics like Paul are so close to agreement with left wing fanatics such as Obama. How does one explain the fanatics of near-anarchism are so aligned with the fanatics of near-communism?

  103. Maybe the ignorance and xenophobia is because Fox is the most impacting of all US news sources, and 60% of American voters watch it. The 60% also includes most of the US middle classes.

    Our bodies are what we eat, and our mindset is what we learn day by day through our ears and eyes. Eat Fox, think like Fox. Go figure.

  104. Did anyone catch the “text message poll results” of viewers watching the Faux News Republican Debates?

    Viewers were asked to text message B1-B6 for the six candidates.

    Ron Paul received the most votes, 32%, the only time that Foz actually flashed the results.

    I haven’t seen the final results posted anywhere on Fox News websites or anyplace else!

    Do you think the results would be plastered all over every website and reported on Faux News if Bomb Iran McCain or Fredo Thgompson would have won this popular vote by fair and impartial voters?

    Voter Fraud takes place at Faux News, because they only print what promotes their own agenda.

  105. Oh, how apropos.

  106. Part of the problem is “right wing fanatics” like yourself believe that Barack Obama is a “left wing fanatic” or anywhere “near communism.” The last time I heard Obama call for expropriating the means of production was never, nor anything close to it. Another problem is your total ignorance of the true range of the concept “anarchism,” which encompasses a lot of people, from Lysander Spooner to Nestor Makhno. How do you expect to communicate with or understand anyone outside of your immediate orbit if some tepid populist rhetoric makes you whine about “left wing fanatic(ism)?”

  107. True, but perhaps quite irrelevant. I have noticed the ability of internet operators to drum up enthusiasm, which can obviously bring in bucks and get people to attend rallies, text message Fox News, etc., but it does not necessarily move the popular base. Momentary enthusiasms are easy to drum up in small numbers of people, but concerted efforts on the ground are what is needed to get out the vote. There will be future internet initiated political campaigns, so it is important to learn the lessons now.

  108. John,

    This may have already been pointed out, but in case it has not, then here it is. Your assertion that the GOP initiated the war in Iraq is DEAD WRONG! Yes, a Republican President and House Speaker proposed a “RESOLUTION” in October 2002, but it was a U.S. SENATE, controlled by the DEMOCRATS, which allowed that war resolution to pass. So this fiction that this is strictly Bush’s and the GOP’s war is simply that, pure fiction. This is a Bush, GOP, DEMOCRAT war, which stars Hillary Rodham Clinton at the fore for the Donkeys. If you are truly opposed to the Iraq War, then Ron Paul is your only candidate, assuming that former Democrat Senator Mike Gravel is still in the race.

    Comment by John Smith on 2008-01-10 04:57:26 Report abuse

    Individuals should be at the core of every human philosophy.

    Individuals create social/economic/political institutions. They also create machines.

    Neither institutions nor machines should “have a life of their own”. They are either useful to individuals or they are not. If they are useful they should be protected.

    I opposed the Iraq war from the start. The Democrats do not emphasize the war enough, but on the whole they are more opposed to the war than the Republicans. The war was started by the Republicans.

    The war is a major issue; it is simply not the only issue. I am aware enough of the core anarchist ideas of Rothbard to know I would never support his descendants. I am not in favor of privatized police and fire departments. Anarchy would be the worst possible society.
    (Comments wont

  109. A.G.,

    Good thinking outside the box. It certainly would not hurt either campaign to try this………………

    Comment by A. G. Phillbin on 2008-01-11 21:36:53 Report abuse

    While I agree with those who give credit to voter stupidity, as well as well-timed media attacks, are correct, everyone seems to be missing the fundamental problem with the Ron Paul campaign: self-delusion. As someone who changed registration to Republican (will change back after the California primary) and gave money to the RP campaign, I was certainly infected by the enthusiasm of Paul’s supporters, and was quite impressed by his ability to collect huge sums of money from a large number of people. But even then, I wondered – is enthusiasm a real indication of a real base of electoral support, especially where it was needed? How many of these contributors were even registered Republicans, or thought to switch parties? How much effort was made to get people to do so? Ron Paul’s libertarian (with some paleocon mixed in) philosophy clearly is not the flavor of the month in his own party, and it certainly wasn’t going to draw many Democrats or independents, but for one thing — THE WAR. He should have made it clear that the only electoral anti-war vehicle that was catching on, and therefore that a large number of votes for Paul would change the course of the political debate.

    Now, I only just thought of this, so I can’t blame anyone else for not doing so, but what if Ron Paul were to make joint campaign appearances with Dennis Kucinich, and focused the campaigns away from the personalities and onto the issue of THE WAR and related question of civil liberties? Except in states like New Hampshire, they are not even in competition with each other, since they have closed primaries. The two of them agree on these two issues, and obviously would have to agree to disagree on the rest. It would boost the standing of both campaigns, and get people to look past the the immediate election of a president-king and onto what actually needs to be done. It would mean both campaigns would be looking beyond electing a personality, and focusing on what is needed to make America better.

  110. Paul and Kucinich making joint appearances focusing the issue of THE WAR and related question of civil liberties. A. G. Philbin, thanks for promoting this.

  111. This may be anathema to many people, particularly those on the political left.

    At any rate, the Founding Fathers of America did not believe in universal suffrage. They thought that only people who owned property should vote. The assumption underlying that belief was that the acquisition and ownership of property required a level of intelligence, knowledge and insight which in political matters would keep the herd instinct at bay; make such individuals less vulnerable to political propaganda and more capable of objective analysis.

    History has vindicated them. Democracy, a much abused term, requires a level of political sophistication that does not exist in America. To be blunt, there are too many naive, gullible and stupid people who vote.

    Therefore, I believe that people should be required to take a test before voting and pass it. If they cannot pass the test, they should not be allowed to vote. Allowing “unqualified” people to vote adulterates and demeans the political system. And in the final analysis makes a mockery out of a political system. Just look at the primary results in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    By way of analogy, it would be similar to having a person who has never driven a tractor trailer truck get behind the wheel and drive. Or a person who has never been to medical school perform surgery on an ill person. In other words, what most people with common sense and basic intelligence do not tolerate in most other spheres of human activity is blatantly and triumphantly tolerated in the political sphere.

  112. I learned that the hard way, and I’m only eighteen.

  113. I am perplexed. Still perplexed. Maybe you or your friends can shed some light on this for me. Didn’t Islam declare war on us!? Didn’t 3,000 Americans perish in fire and flame while Islamic terrorists shouted “Allah Akbar!”

    Your stupidity continues unabated. Osama bin Laden and his cohorts attacked America knowing that the strike would be exploited by America’s political class to begin a disastrous war that would swell the ranks of Al-Qaeda immensely and radicalize influential segments of the Islamic world. Oh yeah, and the actions of a small group can’t be taken as representative of Islam as a whole, particularly when bin Laden’s motive was not religion but politics.

    Have not these Islamo Fascists been attacking us long, long before our intervention in Iraq? Doesn’t Shiek Nassralah of Hezbolah call us the great satan and wish for our demise? Didn’t Bin Laden’s top deputy, Aymin Al Zawahiri say that there would be peace if we just converted to Islam? These are but a few of many examples.

    Rather than engaging in such cretinous logocentrism, it might be worthwhile to examine the circumstances of such statements. America’s support for Israel, its bankroll which amounts to a “who’s who” of Middle Eastern despotisms, and its murder of 1.2 million people in Iraq make “Satanic” a fitting description of American foreign policy. Hezbollah has its iniquities, no doubt, but as a legitimate resistance movement it simply cannot be equated with, much less construed as morally inferior to, a brutal apartheid state like Israel bent on deracinating the regional Arab population.

    I’m not looking to pick a fight, I just want to better understand the liberal/progressive mindset on this issue. I feel like you guys are telling me that the world is flat, while I know it to be round. So maybe you or your friends could kindly shed some light on this.

    No, you’ve merely habituated yourself to a certain worldview to the point where you cannot conceive of anything different.

  114. The tenuous understanding of political ideologies one so often finds in the neoconservative camp is asserting itself, I see.

  115. Aye, not that it makes any difference in any case, since the Republican and Democratic parties are functionally identical. One left-wing solution might be to revamp America’s decrepit educational system, but as we both know effective pedagogy can only carry us so far. The regionalization of power might be one way to limit the fallout of voter stupidity. Any other options?

  116. Although this is off-topic, I do have a sneaking sympathy with your point of view here, although not with the founding fathers’ veneration of property ownership as a qualification for the franchise. While the acquisition of property by an adult non-property owner from a propertyless family can be said to require a certain type and level of intelligence, the inheritance of property implies no such thing. In fact, the expectation of such inheritance can render an otherwise intelligent offspring to be indolent and self-indulgent, and only a tough-minded, attentive parent can insure that this doesn’t happen. This notion was a holdover from the feudal and monarchical era, where noble heritage (with attached property) was assumed to be superior to common heritage. Also, the acquisition of property by a propertyless person requires a different type of intelligence than that which is needed in a citizen. A citizen should be able to understand the interests of others in society, not just himself or his family.

    I can certainly see why you would want people to take a test before being allowed to vote. The concept would, of course, hinge on who wrote the test and what was in it. Also, could an oral test be administered for those whose literacy or written English skills were lacking? I would propose that a basic understanding of the US Constitution be a part of any such test. I would also propose that people would only have to pass it once in their lifetime to be eligible for citizenship, INCLUDING those born here to parents who are citizens. You would also need to reassure people that this is not a revival of the Jim Crow era poll tests, which were designed to discourage blacks from voting. Also, perhaps a “service test” would go along with the written test, in order to insure that the prospective citizens care enough about their community (city, state, nation) to do some voluntary work. It could be military or civilian volunteer work, but it has to be for at least two years, although not necessarily uninterrupted.

    Or maybe not. Maybe the best we can do is improve the level of democracy that still exists in this country. Eliminating the “winner take all” electoral system that encourages people to vote as if they were betting on a horse and replacing it with ranked choice voting would go a long way to ending the two party duopoly. We could also end the system of presidential primaries being held on different dates, and have all of them on the same day in late June, just before the party conventions. How is it “democratic” to give the people of Iowa or New Hampshire less time to decide who they want than the people of New York, Texas, or California? How is it “democratic” to depress campaigns that are slow to gear up and cause them to drop out due to low initial vote totals? A lot can happen in six months, both within a campaign and in the outside world, to influence the outcome of the election. Why not let it happen BEFORE people to get to pull that lever, punch that card, or press that screen icon? How about televised debates that are sponsored by university debate teams instead of media pimps — oops, I mean, corporations? None of these assholes (Fox, MSNBC, CNN, etc.) ever did a better job than the League of Women Voters. How about legally requiring such debates, with all candidates on the ballot in at least 40 states being automatically invited, by law? I could go on, but, like I said, this is off topic.

  117. Such a joint effort of mutual re-enforcement for the Florida primary has already been proposed by Kucinich supporters.

    These two men have a lot more in common than just the war. Their foreign policy in general would abide by the same principles of self-determination and non-interference in the internal affairs of other states. In government both claim to be outraged by the ravaging of our constitution by this imperial executive.

    In the economic sphere, both would end the corporate welfare state and its predatory capitlism practices that inhibit individualism and destroys the middle class at home while being the instigator of empire abroad. Both vehemently oppose WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA and all other trade treaties that favor corporate transnationals and fog national sovereignty.

    No one defended the ideals of individualism more eloquently than SDS in its founding Port Huron Declaration in 1961 quoted below:

    “As a social system we seek the establishment of a democracy of individual participation, governed by two central aims: that the individual share in those social decisions determining the quality and direction of his life; that society be organized to encourage independence in men and provide the media for their common participation.”

    I think Ron Paul and Kucinich would both agree with this central premise. Their fundamental difference lies in the role of the State in the health and education of its citizens. I believe that Paul and Kucinich are compassionate and well-intentioned. It would be easy for these two men to find a common ground.

  118. Germany had Goebbels and America has Fox. What I can say in
    Germany,s favour is that they did not have the internet,
    americans have. Say no more, notch notch wink, wink.

  119. Germany had Goebbels and Americans have Fox. What I can say
    in the favour of Germany is that they had no internet. Say no more.

  120. Germany had Goebbels and Americans have Fox. What I can say
    in Germany,s favour is that they had no Internet. Say no more.

  121. I hate to say it, but today’s Amerika is the very epitome of the Age of Stupid.

    The Great March of Human Folly continues unabated. Like the Romans and so many other imperialist civilizations before us, we’re marching over the cliff and into the depths of the Great Abyss. And it ain’t it a bitch to be carried off over that cliff by the mindless lemmings, no matter how much you try to resist them???

  122. It may be that that humanity’s ultimate destiny is to serve as a cautionary tale to any other sentient race that may chance upon Earth.

  123. I don´t know, even though I absolutely agree on Dr Pauls stand on the Irak war, maybe the people of New Hampshire looked at his stand on other issues too – and didn´t like what they saw. Abortion – he´s against. Gun control – he´s against. Giving medical treatment to illegal immigrants – he´s against. I for one could never vote for anyone whom don´t respect half the populations (i.e. women) right to decide over their own bodies. And I could never vote for anyone that thinks it´s OK for everyone to carry arms. And I think it´s undignified for a rich country as the US to turn away people that needs treatment, illegals or not. And that´s just Dr Paul. The other candidates all have issues that should be considered apart from the catastrophic Irak war. But I do agree that the Irak war should be at top of all candidates agendas.

  124. Good dissection Kenneth.
    Just one more remark. The identity of those who commandeered the planes that slammed into the WTTs and the Pentagon is still nebulous. That five Israelis had positioned themselves in advance to watch the spectacle and feted the feat with glee was irrefutably witnessed.

  125. To give the “moderate” libertarians some credit, there is more going on here than just below-the-beltway selling out of principles. There is also ideological ambiguity. Think of the late Harry Brown, a fine man but one who switiched his message mid career i.e. who both ran for pres. on the LP ticket (radical?) and wrote “How to Live Free in an Unfree World” (moderate). I call this latter view the Epicurean tendency in libertarianism: even if we can’t get rid of state opression, still perhaps we can live well in the interstecies of society and refuse to give the state our moral consent. From their point of view its a realistic critique of the romantic heroism of Rand and Rothbard…from a radical point of view it’s going morally AWOL. The point I am making is that it is a conciously held ideology, not just a moral or intellectual lapse. And like the original Epicurianism of the Late Hellenistic/early Roman period it allows intellectuals to survive under the growing clouds of tyranny.

  126. Due to the salutory (but rather late in the game) influence of Hans Herman Hoppe, libertarian thinkers are at last giving serious consideration to the wise thoughts of the founders on this matter. I would guess that the holding of not just property but *real* property would be the optimal criterion for the franchise, and would combine several benefits mentioned in the libertarian, paleo, and agrarian literature. Of course residents and sojourners would need to have a set of advocacy organizations to defend their rights against electoral citizens. It would make for a dynamic world of poltical contest, not a static “utopia.” However I’m afraid the idea of an IQ test for citizenship is just more modernist nonsense…surely we all know by now that these tests are arbitrary and biased!

  127. My favorite thing about comment threads on this blog is how many people are so convinced of their own opinions that they’re willing to go ahead and label everyone who disagrees with them “idiots.” Of course, this happens everywhere, and not just on the internet–but this site seems to bring libertarian self-caricature to a fever pitch. You guys are so SMART! If only the world would listen to you.

  128. By the way, Kenneth, do you know what country comes in as a close second to Israel, in terms of foreign aid? Eygpt. Funny how you and other folks on here are not quite so upset about that. But any money to Israel and you have apoplexy.

  129. Indeed? Damn. Doesn’t surprise me. Zionists are always bad news, and these look to be among the worst of the lot. My pet theory is that the CIA deliberately opted for fundamentalists like Gulbaddin Hekmatyar over democrats like Ahmed Shah Massoud during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan knowing that an armed Islamist organization would redound to the benefit of America’s rulers (and the detriment of its general populace) in the form of a terrorist attack. Certainly, the “New Pearl Harbour” metaphor is more apt than many of its users realized, since Roosevelt did just this with Japan. What do you think?

  130. Tim R,

    With you, every day is Groundhog's Day (as in the movie). Always the same hysteria about Islam, the same weak defense of Zionist Israel. There is nothing basic about Islam for America to fear – what we have to fear is blowback from our attempts to walk all over some Islamic countries. Our support for Zionism which believes that it has a perfect right to seize land and water from Palestine and commit slow genocide to starve the natives out puts us crosswise to every Islamic country in the world. In large part, we have generated Islamic sects that act militarily just so we can divide and conquer any successful, secular Islamic country that won't summit to Israel. Why do you think we attacked Iraq? Why was Nassar "our enemy"? What has Iran done to indicate that they are ready to attack us? And, finally, the only reason we give Egypt several billion dollars a year is to bribe them into not attacking Israel.

  131. Tim R.- Your insinuation is perfectly ridiculous, even if we assume that the allegation (which you are so fond of making) that critics of American foreign policy are aligned with the jihadists- why would I support corrupt pro-American regimes in the Arab world in either case? I have repeatedly condemned America’s funding of various Middle Eastern dictatorships time and time again- it is one of my key talking points. I do believe I’ve pointed out that America’s support for Saudi Arabia gives the lie to its claim to “spread democracy”, a fact whose importance you’ve repeatedly attempted to diminish. Alas, your accusatory remark merely draws attention from your inability to formulate a cogent reply to my argument, so I’ll leave it at that.

  132. At least they avoid the mindless eclecticism of “responsible” commentators.

  133. Islamicism was always correctly appreciated by the Brits, the Americans and the Israelis as a useful tool to oppose any nascent nationalist democracy in India or the Middle East. Fueling Hindu-Muslim antipathies was one way the British empire kept control over the whole subcontinent with relatively so few soldiers. In Egypt they instigated the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1924 to thwart the nationalist parties that were aspiring to full independence.

    In much the same way, I believe, the US was aware, during the Cold War, that Islamic fundamentalism was the most effective means of undermining the advance of nationalist pan-Arabism, personified by Gamal Abdel Nasser, to the strategic oil rich gulf. What better way to defeat Arab nationalism or socialism (imported ideas) than with the religion the Arabs invented. Hence the grand alliance of American oil and Sharia(Islamic law) in the Whahhabite Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And it worked.

    Bin Laden is merely the continuation of that policy. It is in the context of that same logic that the CIA backed more manipulable Islamists against a sincere popular nationalist like Massoud. Bizarre coincidence that he was assassinated right before 9/11 therefore eliminating any possibility that he would become the post-Taliban leader of Afghanistan.

    Of course, just like Victor Frankenstein, sometimes the creators lose control of their creation(as in Israel with Hamas or the US with Manuel Noriega). If the CIA likewise lost control of their baby(bin Laden), it would be interesting to know precisely when.

    The Alamo, the Lucitania, the Maine, Pearl Harbour and the Gulf of Tonkin were as convenient as 9/11 for the causes of expansionism or imperialism. Some were provocations, others were fabrications. Their common effects were wars. I think more and more people are becoming aware that December 7th 1941 was a date of great deceit as well as infamy.

  134. This is all true. You’ve broached a point that I’d neglected, though it is a bit tangential to this discussion. To add, it should be noted that Washington repeatedly failed to support genuinely democratic movements- such as the RAWA in Afghanistan and the EPLF in Eritrea- when the opportunity presented itself, despite the fact that the latter case represented a potent prophylactic against Soviet designs on the Red Sea. America’s latter day Caesars would rather see other states fall to Stalinism or some congruent form of anti-American totalitarianism than become independent democracies for the simple reason that such regimes lack legitimacy and are much more easily dislodged, plied, and used as propaganda fodder than genuinely popular ones.

  135. Now that you mention it the British Empire and King George aren’t really that bad. Things could be a lot worse, we could be left to the mercy of the Barbarian Heathen heretics that inhabit the wild forests of our frontier. And we can’t let them take this land our Lord blessed us with. In fact the British Army and the fine lads in their Red Coats keep us safe from those barbarians and the thieving back stabbing Spaniards to the south. Imagine if the blood thirsty cannibals that live on the Mexican peninsula came to rip out the hearts of our wives and children, they worship the Devil you know. Or the French, you can’t trust them either, our mighty British Army keeps us Secure from those scoundrels. Do you really want to listen to some fool ramble on about the Tea tax calling us to Rebellion against our King? This is madness! Without taxation who would provide funds for the Army and Navy? We would have no trade with Europe without ships. We need taxation, and the Magna Carta and Parliament give us all the Representation we could possibly need!

  136. Yeah, but having more tools in your toolbox helps you avoid being the guy with a hammer who thinks everything is a nail. On the other hand, as far as entertainment is concerned, I’d be sad if everyone here started being nice and making sense. To that extent I totally agree with you. Idiot.

  137. So, jf, do you fall into the “misinformed”, “disinformed” or “corrupt” category? Ron Paul is no rascist, but that doesn’t keep the Dark Ones from spreading their lies.

  138. I’m a RP supporter, but Stan and others claiming massive vote-stealing need base their claims on something other than opinion polls. It’s a lot easier to rig a survey than an election — carefully pick the respondents, ask loaded questions, etc.

    Here’s a true example: In 1995, the Brevard Co. (Florida) school board tried to foist a massive (~$100M) bond issue on the taxpayers. About a week before the referendum, the county’s leftist fishwrap published a poll it had conducted that showed 48% in favor, 40% opposed, and the rest undecided. “VOTERS LEAN TOWARD BOND”, the headline screamed. Not only did the bond issue fail, it failed by a 3-1 margin! There is simply no way an honest poll could be that wildly wrong. Obviously the paper concocted a bogus survey in an attempt to influence the vote. As one letter to the editor put it, “Who did you guys poll, the teachers’ union? Was (the school superintendent) helping with the phones?” Perhaps they first did a real poll, then killed it when it revealed the overwhelming opposition.

    Nor would chucking modern voting machines be any panacea. The Daley and LBJ machines stole the 1960 election for JFK using mostly good old-fashioned paper ballots. Then there’s the low-tech Al Gore/Tammany Hall tactics such as bribes, voting early & often, etc., that predate the War of Yankee Aggression (see the film Gangs of New York).

    The bottom line is, this is not a “pollocracy.” If it were, Dewey really would have defeated Truman.

  139. Abswer to Sayin’ Like It Is:
    :Sure is, while the whole world is watching and calling us a major threat to world peace.

  140. May I also point out that a hostile Egypt would make it rather awkward for US navy carriers, battlesips and logistical support to transit the Suez Canal where they are literally ‘sitting ducks’. Maintaining an armada in the Arabian Sea and the Persian Gulf would be that much more difficult.

  141. Seems to me this Ron Paul Revolution won’t be going anywhere. Maybe we need a Ron Paul Coup d’etat(Maybe a Virginia National Guard unit can seize the White House or something)? I can agree with PSI, I don’t really support many of his platform ideas either. Besides his view on the Illegal Invasion of Iraq he does not differ much from other Republican candidates. Maybe he should run as an independent if the Rigged Primaries don’t work? I certainly don’t support the warmongering (Democ)Rat top candidates.

  142. Richard Vajs writes:

    “And, finally, the only reason we give Egypt several billion dollars a year is to bribe them into not attacking Israel.”

    Ah! Great, finally a point that we both agree on!

  143. Idiot? Was that a deliberate attempt at irony, or do the standards you hold ideological purists to not apply to “nice” people?

  144. I should add that I’m not a libertarian, merely someone who is fed up with the patronizing attitude of most of its critics.

  145. It’s time to face facts. Very few Americans are truly anti-war. They are only against LOSING wars. Furthermore, if the American casualties in Iraq continue to decline, the American people will start viewing it as a “success”. They will have no clue what an unmitigated disaster it has been. This war has already been lost several times over. No future outcome can ever justify the 4,000 American dead, tens of thousands of wounded and hundreds of billions of dollars in debt our children must pay off, let alone the 1.3 million excess Iraqi deaths. But if things settle down to a quiet occupation, media pundits and government officials will declare the effort “worth it” and the American people will believe it.

    Indeed, the lesson of this primary season is that Americans will continue to believe in war even without the prompting of these pundits and government officials. That’s why Ron Paul gets only 10% and Dennis Kucinich even less. McCain won NH because the 30% of Republicans ostensibly against the War in Iraq are no so much against the war as losing it, and they believe McCain will win it. Likewise, Democrats vote for Clinton and Obama precisely BECAUSE they hate losing even more than continuing a futile war indefinitely. It’s not so much the Clinton “knows how to get us out” as that they hope she’ll get us out without a humiliating defeat. They agree 100% with Obama in that they’re not against all wars, only against DUMB wars (meaning LOSING wars).

    This madness will not end until the pain becomes too great. I fear Stan Goff is correct, that the game must be played through to the end, which will be final economic collapse resulting from our attempt to fight the entire Islamic world on THEIR soil.

  146. It’s not just Republicans. It’s Democrats as well. See my earlier post. We are doomed to continue this interventionist madness until the US is bankrupt.

  147. A.G., Stanley, and Kenneth, Thank you so much for the cogency of all the remarks and information you offered above, although I don’t know whether the last sentence developed by Kenneth above is accurate.

    Well, we are now entering the third week of ’08. Will we make it through without attacking another country?

  148. Will you continue to waste our time with declarations such as this one, or will you eventually write a response with some substance?

  149. Perhaps, perhaps not. It is mostly conjecture on my part, though I can think of no other explanation for America’s apparent indifference toward developments in Western Africa following the overthrow of Haile Selassi. A handful of mainstream commentators have bemoaned this fact- for an excellent example of this, as well as a sterling piece of journalism, see Robert D. Kaplan’s Surrender or Starve.

  150. PSI –
    Learn how to spell and use correct grammar, and maybe someone will listen to you. Dr. Paul is a strict constitutionalist. He does not want to outlaw abortion, but rather allow each state to decide. The federal government has no authority to decide on such issues. The constitution also give us the right to bear arms. The illegal aliens are taking advantage of the free lunch they are given here, and they are abusing the system. They are taking away from Americans, and we can’t afford to support them. By the way, it’s Iraq, not Irak.

  151. Excuse you, but Dr. Paul was against the Iraq war 5 years before it started, and voted against if from the beginning. The rest of the Republicans are not only for the war, they were also in favor of the “surge” and they want to expand the war to Iran and elsewhere. Dr. Paul could not be more different on this issue, and virtually all other issues, than the rest. Where do you get your information?

  152. It was irony–self-deprecating irony, in fact. As for libertarianism, my patience for the patronizing attitude of its critics (myself included) has not yet been exhausted.

  153. It because the American population are a Nation of complete dumb-as**, who watch too much TV and have there heads up their-own ass**- What other nation terms a national sports event “The World Series”????-: this goes a long way to explaining how ignorant the US population is.

  154. If St. John is so smart, the good Dr. ought to ask him, exactly, how much money McNuts cost the taxpayers as a founding member of the Keating 5? His ONLY claim to fame (or is that infame?). At least the other four had the common decency to just go away. McCrazy is a fraud! Or even better, Ron Paul needs to ask McPhoney where a dollar comes from. My bet is that McFraud has no idea, nor do any of the other empty suits vying for the nomination.

  155. Stan? Are you serious? Have you actually talked to people about who they support in the 2008 Presidential race? Dude, almost nobody I know (outside of my Ron Paul meet-up group) have even heard of Ron Paul. People vote for who they’re told to vote for, and right now FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc. are the ones with the loudest voices. It doesn’t matter if the bastards cheat 5 or 10 percent of the votes tallied. That’s been going on forever. Trust me, it’s nothing new. Vote fraud in America is as old as America. The only way for a non-establishment nominee to become President is by landslide. Right now Ron Paul isn’t a landslide, but there’s still a lot of hope. He’s gaining ground every day, as long as his supporters don’t start nit-picking and in-fighting. We gotta stand together.

  156. Well, all opinions have a right to be heard – even the ones with bad spelling and grammar. Sorry about that and thanks for taking the time to reply anyway..!

  157. Does he believe in a woman’s choice in abortion? Does he believe in giving people a break in medical costs? Does he think unrestrained Capitalism is a bad idea? Does he want implement at least some kind of limitations on sales of weapons in the US? No, as far as I know. These are basically similar to what the other “major” Republican candidates believe in one form or another. Only his stand on the Illegal War is different. But I am open to being proven wrong.

  158. Correction. “Does he want to implement”

    I am actually against illegal immigration. But I am for preventing the conditions that are the causes of illegal immigration. I am against the unequal distribution of wealth in Central and South America. I am against the Crime lords and Elite families who gain huge fortunes in those countries. US Corporations make the situation worse by cooperating with these elements and many times subverting change in a positive direction.

  159. An analysis of the anti-Paul smear campaign on the day of the New Hampshire primary, including its odd association with a Washington, DC subway line:

    The Orange Line: anatomy of a smear campaign

  160. Only 2 million watch Faux, that’s a tiny fraction of the middle class

  161. Stanley Laham writes:
    “The Alamo, the Lucitania, the Maine, Pearl Harbour and the Gulf of Tonkin were as convenient as 9/11 for the causes of expansionism or imperialism.”

    Yes, you are right. Our whole country was built on lies and has only been a force for evil in the world. We never did anything good whatsoever. We should just call it quits as a nation and the world would be better off. In fact, since most of western civilization was “expansionist” and “imperialist” at some point, they should call it quits too.

    Just think about it: A world without western nations and their imperialism! A world where there is no United States of America, no Canada, no France, no Britain, no Australia. Heck, what a great world we would have.

  162. Tim,

    What you are attempting to do here with your circular argument is what is known in mathematics as proof by reductio ad absurdum. You start with a premise that denies a hypothesis and show that it inevitably leads to a contradiction. Therefore the premise must be false and the hypothesis true. And by doing this you have proved yourself absurd. Let me demonstrate:

    I assert that the US is guilty of expansionism and imperialism therefore you hypothesize that it means that I don’t believe the US should exist. Since this leads to an absurdity(a world without the US), your hypothesis must be wrong. So you see Tim, it is not my assertion that is wrong but your extrapolation of it that leads to an absurdity and is therefore anathema. :-)

  163. McCain Anti-War??? Last time I read, McCain was expressing his support of turning Iraq into another "100 Years War" if necessary…

    But what if he does win the election? Would Americans opt to move to Canada in order to avoid this potential "100 Years' War?" I heard Canada was ramping up its immigration centers in expectation of another wave of "Blue Staters" in the event of a Republican victory: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

    In the independent film "Blue State," the protagonist does exactly that. He decides to flee the United States after another republican victory in 2004, due to strong liberal ideals: http://www.bluestate.com

  164. It seems Tim R. has seen his narrow repertoire of arguments shot down one by one and is thus reduced to reciting permutations of the “anti-American” insult. Perhaps he should leave this site and read up on the history of American foreign policy to avoid further ignominy.

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