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MR.
RUSSERT (Tim Russert, host): Joe Lieberman, Pat Buchanan, welcome both.
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Tim.
MR. RUSSERT: Would President Buchanan try to convince an American mother
that she should risk her son’s life in Kosovo?
MR. BUCHANAN: No, I would not because there’s no vital American interest
in Kosovo. Tim, the Serbs, while their tactics are appalling—ethnic
cleansing—are fighting for a sacred province that has belonged to
them for generations. They’re fighting and dying inside their own
country for their own land. It has never been a vital interest to the
United States whose flag flies over Pristina. And what are we doing bombing
and attacking this tiny country that has never attacked the United States
to rip away from them a province that does not belong to us? I believe
it is an unjust war. I think we have failed in our strategic objectives,
and it is now becoming basically no longer a war for Kosovo but a war
to save NATO’s credibility and NATO’s face. And that does not
justify sending an army of 100,000 American ground troops into the Balkans.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lieberman?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Well, it pains me to hear Pat’s answer because with
all respect, it reveals a lack of learning the lessons of World War II
and, indeed, of the Cold War. I mean, Ronald Reagan did not lead us to
victory in the final battles of the Cold War for us less than a decade
later to allow a Communist dictator to commit aggression and genocide
in the heart of Europe. Those are the lessons. Those acts assault our
values. America is more than a piece of real estate. America is a series
of moral principles that begin with the right to life and liberty that
the Declaration says our creator gave us. That is being grotesquely violated,
those values, in Kosovo today.
Also, the Second World War taught us that if you don’t stop a smaller
conflict in Europe early it’s going to spread and we’re going
to get into a world war. So now is the time for us to stand by our principles,
to stand by our allies in NATO, who reaffirmed our friendship and partnership
with one another this weekend here in Washington, who will stand with
us when we are tested around the world in the future, and they’re
in Kosovo. American principles and American security interests are on
the line.
MR. BUCHANAN: It pains me to disagree with my friend, Joe Lieberman. But
Ronald Reagan, when he put troops into Lebanon and to stabilize that government,
it was a just cause. But when the 269 Marines died, Ronald Reagan looked
at that and said, “It is not in our vital interest. I made a mistake.”
He had the moral courage to pull them out. With regard to Kosovo, there
was 2,000 killed in 1998 in a low-grade civil war. There was no genocide
going on. It was an ugly little war. The massive ethnic cleansing has
been caused—is a consequence of air strikes and Rambouillet. We ourselves
have ignited this debacle. Now, in my judgment, the ideal is to stop the
killing, to stop the suffering. And the way to do that is to work toward
a negotiated peace. Milosevic apparently has agreed to have international
troops in there as long as they’re not NATO. We want NATO troops
in there. That is not a cause worth sending an American Army into the
Balkans.
With regard to Tony Blair—excuse me, but this last week he has literally
been the mouse that roared, talking about the United States or Britain
going to a ground war in the Balkans. It is not going to be British troops
humping up that road to Belgrade but American kids, U.S. Marines, airborne
divisions. And that is not a vital interest of this country.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you partition Kosovo, give Mr. Milosevic...
MR. BUCHANAN: I would—look, if the Serbs—this is their holy
place. It is their sacred territory. If they want to keep that, they’ve
had it for generations and even centuries. Why are we trying to go to
war to take it away from them? Of course...
MR. RUSSERT: Isn’t that appeasing Mr. Milosevic?
MR. BUCHANAN: Look, it is not appeasement. It is his—Kosovo is his
province as much—how would we react if down the road they said, “You
got to give up Texas and the Alamo”? How would Ariel Sharon react
if an Arab League and the Europeans said, “You’ve got to give
up Jerusalem and get out”?
MR. RUSSERT: But we didn’t drive out a million Texans in train cars
and buses and make them refugees?
MR.
BUCHANAN: Look, Tim, you’re telling me that the tactics have been
appalling and disgusting and you are exactly right. What triggered the
massive ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? It is my belief that it was the NATO
air strikes that began this whole episode, and if we had—is there
anybody here who would not accept immediately the status quo ante? Is
there anyone who thinks the Kosovar Albanians are better off now than
they were 32 days ago?
MR. RUSSERT: Senator?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: This is an outrageous claim. The status quo ante was about
to be Milosevic moving into Kosovo and doing exactly what he’s done,
slaughtering the Kosovars and burning their villages and pushing them
out. It is outrageous for Pat to say that the NATO air bombing caused
the slaughter in Kosovo. Look it didn’t require NATO to bomb Serbia
for Milosevic over the last 10 years to invade Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia,
to bring about the death of hundreds of thousands of people in those places.
This man is a tyrant and, Pat, you’re wrong about Ronald Reagan.
Remember, Reagan led us to victory in the Cold War to stop tyranny and
communism. Milosevic is a tyrant and a Communist and what you’re
talking about is basically standing back—what would you have done
as he moved into Kosovo and began to slaughter, rape and burn?
MR. BUCHANAN: You’re wrong both in your history and geography. Yugoslavia
began to break up. Slovenia had belonged to Yugoslavia. It broke away.
Croatia broke away. Bosnia broke away. Macedonia...
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Did that justify him invading all of those places?
MR. BUCHANAN: No. Macedonia broke away and Kosovo is breaking away. You’ve
got the breakdown of a country in which America has no vital interest.
Frankly, I supported Slovenia. I supported Croatia. I did not support
Bosnia. But it is not a vital interest of the United States of America,
whose flag flies over any one of these particular provinces, republics
or countries.
SEN. LIEBERMAN: That’s like seeing...
MR. BUCHANAN: America’s vital interest, quite frankly, Joe, is in
peace in the Balkans. Can you tell me we have gotten peace there? We have
widened the war. We have estranged the Russians. We have destabilized
Macedonia and Montenegro and we have ignited, not caused, but ignited,
the greatest human rights catastrophe in the history of the Kosovar Albanians.
How can you defend the policy of Balkan Bay of Pigs?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Pat, at the end of this conflict, which NATO must and
will win, we will have established the principle of a free and united
Europe. Lech Walesa, one of the heroes of the end of the Cold War, said
this week here in Washington, “If NATO does not triumph in Kosovo,
we will have a third world war in Europe.” Why? Because there will
be no fear. Tyrants in Europe and Asia and the Middle East will run wild
because there’s no one on the block to speak for the values and security
that we hold dear.
MR. BUCHANAN: Joe, the NATO expansionists and the NATO interventionists
who launched this Balkan Bay of Pigs are more responsible than anyone
for the possible—first for the ruin of NATO’s credibility, and
second for the possible destruction of NATO. You made a blunder. When
you make a blunder, have the moral courage to admit it, cut the best deal
and end it.
SEN. LIEBERMAN: This is not Reagan in Lebanon. This is not a blunder.
This is a noble fight for a worthy cause which is the principle of liberty
and justice and freedom and a stable and united and free Europe. And if
we had sat back—look, even the negotiated settlement that you talk
about, Pat, would not have been possible and I’m against it. I think
we ought to have non-negotiable demands unless we had taken military action.
This man, Milosevic, only listens to force.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator, last week at this very table, the former NATO supreme
commander said, “It’s going to take ground troops to win. NATO
cannot afford to lose. We need ground troops.” Is it time?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: It is time—I hope it doesn’t take ground troops
to win, because I hope the air campaign, even if it does not convince
Milosevic to order his troops out of Kosovo, will so devastate his economy,
which it’s doing now, so ruin the lives of his people, that they
will rise up and throw him out. But there is no substitute for victory
here. If it takes ground troops, we must use them. And as part of that,
not only should we begin to plan for the use of ground troops as was decided
at the NATO conference this week, I believe we should begin to deploy
them to the region so that we are ready to strike and finish this fight
if that becomes necessary.
MR. RUSSERT: I’ll give you the last word.
MR. BUCHANAN: You have touched right on the basic points. They said we
have to win. NATO cannot afford to lose. What you’re saying then
is what is at stake, all the other things that have been lost, is NATO’s
credibility. You cannot smash and destroy a tiny country to re-establish
credibility. That is not a moral or a just war. If we could get the situation
back where all of those Albanians were back in Kosovo, we would take it.
We can’t even do that right now. Cut the best deal we can, end this
debacle. Rebuild America’s military and retrench and stay out of
wars that are none of America’s business.
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