Scott Horton Interviews Patrick Cockburn

Scott Horton, October 20, 2011

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Patrick Cockburn, Middle East correspondent for The Independent, discusses Moammar Gadhafi’s death and NATO’s “mission accomplished” in Libya; why the rebel factions will have to find a new cause to rally around, or else face divisions and infighting; why the Arab spring is a genuine grassroots movement, not a CIA-engineered series of color coded revolutions; and having to rely on human rights NGOs for reports critical of Libya’s NTC, since the media doesn’t do its own investigations or publicize information contrary to US government aims (even Al Jazeera is a rebel cheerleader).

MP3 here. (26:49)

Patrick Cockburn, Middle East correspondent for The Independent, has been visiting Iraq since 1978. He was awarded the 2005 Martha Gellhorn prize for war reporting in recognition of his writing on Iraq. He is the author of, his memoir, The Broken Boy (Jonathan Cape, 2005), and with Andrew Cockburn, Saddam Hussein: An American Obsession (Verso, The Occupation: War, Resistance and Daily Life in Iraq (Verso, 2006) and Muqtada: Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shia revival and the Struggle for Iraq.

62 Responses to “Patrick Cockburn”

  1. Qaddafi was megalomaniac mass murderer who did the worst against his own people. I still don't condone him being killed without trial. It shows the lack of control the new government has over its fighters.

  2. How many people did Gaddafi kill? I've never seen any figures that seemed reliable. But it sounds like you have the bead on it.

  3. I posted this comment earlier today, but under a Sept. 25 heading, so am reposting it here.

    I wanted to convey that Houston megadeveloper Gerald Hines has had his eyes on the unspoiled Mediterranean coastline in Libya for some time. The U.S. was making nice to Qaddafi in the early 2000's, it appeared in order to pave the way for this developer's schemes. I have seen nothing about this in recent years, however.

    Hines has been involved in partnerships with Saudis in the U.S., not only in Houston but in Aspen (where a conference room is jointly named for him and Saudi Prince Bandar at a fancy hotel I can't remember the name of at the moment) and Denver (where he owns a piece of the Denver Post building). I litigated against Hines's plans for snowmaking at the Hines Highlands resort in Aspen in the mid-1990's, which would destroy (and probably have destroyed by now) the fishery in Maroon Creek. But the judges are profoundly corrupt in Colorado, particularly when it comes to water and development, and we did not get very much. When we were in the Colorado Supreme Court, when the case was ripe for ruling, the Denver Post ran a big laudatory article about Hines, such things as that he was a runner and his cholesterol level was 110, etc.–basically a coded message to the justices how they had to rule. The ruling from the Court came out shortly after giving Hines everything he wanted, and mischaracterizing the nature of several of our claims.

  4. Yes, questions that many won't answer.

  5. Graham: There's a lot of money to be made in Libya. http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/10/20/3487

  6. I'm reading his wiki carefully, not that it's dispositive, just a way of getting the discussion going. Coup when he took over was bloodless. Here's the negatives:
    1, He had an assassination list of 25 Libyan expats who were political dissidents (hmmm, where have I heard about that recently).
    2. He expelled (didn't kill) Italians living in Libya in 1970, called "ethnic cleansing" in the wiki.
    3. Discriminated against Berbers, moving them out of their villages into newly constructed towns and passed laws against their culture, like forbidding them using their language. No allegations of killing in that section.
    4. He lost 7500 soldiers in his war with Chad, Chad lost 1000, won war, was backed by US, France.
    5. Instated purification laws which resemble those of the Saudis.
    6. Expelled 30000 Palestinians in response to PLO peace overtures to Israel.
    7. Had chemical weapons stores but no allegations he used them. His nukes were still shrink wrapped when he gave them up.
    8. Had some undesirable buddies in other countries; don't we all.
    9.Supported some terrorist orgs in other countries. US does that too.

    He also did some positive stuff for Libya, like inc Libya's share of oil lift from half to 79%. He was corrupt, but he also built stuff for the people.

    Not a nice guy to be sure, but not outside the range of other garden variety dictators the US has been in bed with (including Gaddafi himself) over the years.

    Still looking for answer to how many people, besides the hit list of 25, he murdered. It isn't in his wiki.

  7. Egypt"s revolution was real. Millions were protesting this wasn't like the staged toppling of Saddam's statue. And as a result the US lost its dictator which is had invested billions into and a week after he was gone Egypt opened up the Suez Canal to Iran for the first time since 1979. And then they partially opened the border to Gaza and broke the blockade the US did NOT want this.

  8. convictive of pre-crimes they went after based on who they thought he was going to kill.

  9. Egypt's revolution was not real it was a staged event and here is the proof.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8

    Muslims and Islam is used by the US/British empire over Christians and other non-Muslims as well as secular Muslim countries in Central Asia since the 70's.

    Islam is a part of the NWO strategy.

    I take it you are youtube user Ry2sense?

  10. What have changed, huh, nothing.
    We are been told and "reported" about it, but sreiously, look at Egypt.
    The nothingness is aparten.

    Tunis,anything anyone, Jemen, Saudi; Jordan, Oman, Qatar; UAE; Syria(under attac.
    What, has happened.
    ohyea Gaddady was a bad MTF but, who isnt, Obamalama, the peace lord himself, have single handed killed far more that all of the combined.
    We out nubered any one on that list, by bombed and derby killing people in Libya only.

    Ohyea Gaddady was bad MTF.

    But dont forgett that Gaddafy was just one Libyand, what happenes next is something else, and we will see.
    Right now its a weird mess, where Hilarious Clintonius, had her Caligula moment on the news, thats more frighning than anything I have see in a long time.
    And whos next.
    Syria.
    Iran.
    Pakistan:
    Uganda.

    WW3, here we come. yehaa.

  11. As always the facts and the people hired to represent them are well connected and phoney from the start despite the statements of by impartial and independent.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4evwAMIh4Y

    We know he was framed for the various terrorist attacks committed in the west and Britain has tried to kill and overthrow him for decades training and giving sanctuary to Islamic terrorists who are MI6 assets like the guy who helped plan the African Embassy bombings.
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/84302/thread/12891….

  12. Who does Wikipedia credit as the source for this "hit list" or any other of these allegations for that matter?

  13. Readers should research Gaddafi's "crimes" for themselves.
    I have done so extensively. None stand close scrutiny.
    Two well known ones:
    Lockerbie: http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politichttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?… http://i-p-o.org/nr-lockerbie-14Oct05.htm

    Yvonne Fletcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fle

    HRW admits its "Abu Salim Massacre" story is based on one "unverifiable" witness. All other allegations of crimes against his own people emanate from interested parties.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detai
    http://empirestrikesblack.com/2011/09/exposed-the
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed

  14. [...] Mission Accomplished in Libya? – Patrick Cockburn isn’t so sure; CIA Covers Up Israeli F… [...]

  15. Saddam Hussein pulled the plugs on preemie incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals & threw the babies on the floor. There's even eyewitness testimony before US congress to prove it.

  16. Read it for yourself. I'm not vouching for the accuracy of his wiki, just looking for the most negative stuff I can find to see if the case that he was a "mass murderer" is supported. So far, no soap. Other links in this thread suggest there's less in the allegations than meets the eye.

  17. [...] Mission Accomplished in Libya? – Patrick Cockburn isn’t so sure; CIA Covers Up Israeli Front’s… [...]

  18. Antiwar's coverage of Qaddafi has been very disappointing. Talk to some Libyans to find out what Qaddafi did to them for the last 42 years.

  19. Links?

  20. That comment was snark. Thought it would be self-evident in the context. *g*

  21. Just a reminder: Xtians lost the crusades, which were not much more than a pimple on the Islamic empire of the time.

  22. Yes it was that wonderful super Zionist Tom Lantos that brought that girl to testify before the US human rights Caucasus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lantos

    Although not in Wikipedia he also promised the Kosovar Albanians in 1990 to work on behalf of their interests in the US which he did supporting the KLA and Kosovo war in 99.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbu6pyc230

  23. May be he is not dead!

  24. “secular muslim countries” john from united kingdom? Isn’t that contradiction in terms?

  25. oh by the way john that reminds me of ‘democratic kingdom’, ‘democratic republic’, ‘democratic yiddish state’ contradiction in terms all

  26. IRAQ — BODY AND SOUL

    Scott Horton in his last interview on this issue, he hit the nail on the head I would say, by his assessment that our Empire knew a revolution would ensue if it did not exit Iraq on schedule and was well satisfied with our three embassy complexes being permanent.

    So, a transition from a deadly force dictatorship to a wealth dictatorship will be fully in place come January 1. And logically so, for man rules the earth by his superior deadly force, wealth is the lubricant that gets things in such a reign of terror and so long as our corporate rich make a profit from it, Iraq body and soul we shall surely by fearful submission own it.

  27. EUROPEAN CRUCADES — ANTI CHRIST — ANTI CHRISTIANITY____eCAHNomics, says, "Just a reminder: Xtians lost the crusades…"____The 175 years of Christian Crusades you mentioned, they started in AD 1095 and should be called the European Crusades, as they were not the slightest religious or moral. For the rich nobility of Europe since the beginning of the Roman Empire have by brutal imperialism been plundering the Middle-East and lands going south.____For Christianity, as described by all copies preserved of the ancient Greek New Testament, is a pacifist religion for example, “Do not use force to overcome evil. If you are hit on the right cheek turn to them the other also.”____Then in AD 381 the state religion of Rome translated the New Testament into Latin, and by changing the translation of Romans 13 to read that governments were “ordained” by God, this gave the Church of Rome the authority to kill in the name of God. ____For a true translation of Romans 13:6 is Because of this then also taxes pay to government authorities who rule by deadly force. For the Lord allows it to exist to establish something, for their terrorism in this way continues without end.” __

  28. EUROPEAN CRUCADES — ANTI CHRIST — ANTI CHRISTIANITY____eCAHNomics, says, "Just a reminder: Xtians lost the crusades…"____The 175 years of Christian Crusades you mentioned, they started in AD 1095 and should be called the European Crusades, as they were not the slightest religious or moral. For the rich nobility of Europe since the beginning of the Roman Empire have by brutal imperialism been plundering the Middle-East and lands going south.____For Christianity, as described by all copies preserved of the ancient Greek New Testament, is a pacifist religion for example, “Do not use force to overcome evil. If you are hit on the right cheek turn to them the other also.”____Then in AD 381 the state religion of Rome translated the New Testament into Latin, and by changing the translation of Romans 13 to read that governments were “ordained” by God, this gave the Church of Rome the authority to kill in the name of God. ____For a true translation of Romans 13:6 is Because of this then also taxes pay to government authorities who rule by deadly force. For the Lord allows it to exist to establish something, for their terrorism in this way continues without end.”__

  29. What happened to my above two comments?

  30. EUROPEAN CRUCADES — ANTI CHRISTIANITY

    Nomics, says, "Just a reminder: Christians lost the crusades…"

    The 175 years of Christian Crusades you mentioned, they started in AD 1095 and should be called the European Crusades, as they were not the slightest religious or moral. For the rich nobility of Europe since the beginning of the Roman Empire have by brutal imperialism been plundering the Middle-East and lands going south.

    For Christianity, as described by all copies preserved of the ancient Greek New Testament, is a pacifist religion for example, “Do not use force to overcome evil. If you are hit on the right cheek turn to them the other also.”

  31. Quite so.

    I can't remember any ultra-kill by Ghaddafi either, just the usual strongman stuff, nothing remarkable. Even for the Pan Am bombing, there is STILL doubt that Ghaddafi was behind it (as opposed to Iran doing the payback run for the Airbus that the US killed).

    As Fisk says:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators

    But let us not forget the past. Gaddafi remembered the Italian colonial rule in Libya, the repulsive Italian rule during which every Libyan had to walk in the gutter when confronted by an Italian, when Libya's heroes were hanged in public, when Libyan freedom was regarded as "terrorism". The oil men and the lads and lassies from the IMF are going to be treated no better with the same servitude. The Libyans are smart people. Gaddafi knew that; although, fatally, he thought himself smarter. The idea that these tribal people will suddenly "globalise" and become different is ridiculous.

    Gaddafi was one of those Arab potentates for whom the moniker "crazy" was fitting, yet who spoke a kind of sanity. He did not believe in "Palestine" because he thought the Israelis had already stolen too much Arab land (correct) and he did not really believe in the Arab world – hence his tribal beliefs. He was, indeed, a very odd person.

  32. Truth, as they say, is NO defense. :-(

  33. Not to worry John Ellis, got your message 3 times.

    My son, when about age 13, said: What does Xtianty have to do with Christ anyhow.

    If you read the NT, as you point out, message of peace comes across loud & strong.

    Actions by practitioners, not so much. Practitioners much more afficianados of OT, not NT.

    Another one of my one-liners is that religions kill more people than they save.

    You are right that Westerners never forgave Islam for winning crusades. Nor for the next 1000 years will Muslims forgive Westerners for trying to extract revenge.

  34. Here's one. More and more will come out, because Libyans have lived in terror and fear – speaking out could not only harm you but also any family members they could get ahold of.

  35. oops – forgot the link: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/06/27/libya-june-

  36. Libya has only 6 million people, and they have oil. Their standard of living should be like that of the Arab Gulf countries, but it's very low because Qaddafi took all he wanted, and gave huge sums to people outside (including, I'm sorry to say, people like Louis Farrakhan and Cynthia McKinney, who are defending him – and to African countries whose leaders and people were still defending him, even militarily). Everyone's phone was tapped, and people lived in constant fear, with mass arrests, torture and killings. Once, when the families turned on the TV to see the special shows that are broadcast at the time of breaking the fast during Ramadan, they were greeted with a live execution by hanging. Qaddafi controlled every aspect of their lives, and his face was everywhere.

  37. I feel deeply sorry for you ummabdulla!
    Have you been in Arab Gulf countries to see how the majority of people live? Fake muslims like you will soon pay the price. Just take a look at you racist “muslim brothers” and how they desecrate dead bodies. They are not muslims. Maybe you should at least study your own “religion”. I could not care for Farrakhan but Cynthia is a genuine human, unlike some here

  38. CHRISTIANITY — FROM PACIFIST TO WAR-HAWK

    Nomics, says, "If you read the NT, as you point out, message of peace comes across loud & strong."

    True, but only if your reading the New Testament in the ancient Greek language, as any kind of force is described as evil, “Do not use force to overcome evil,” and not a single contradiction can be found.

    Then came Emperor Constantine in AD 325 and he to claim that in a vision from God that all true Christians were commanded to kill in the name of God. Christianity was now a warrior’s profession, and as 70% of Christians then were converts from pagan religions a new war-hawk state religion was born. http://www.request.org.uk/main/history/romans/con

    Then in AD 381 this state church published the first compilation of all of the books of the New Testament, it was called the Latin Vulgate. And as only a hypocrite could preach such a pacifist kill in the name of God religion, as it takes only one contradiction in a book to convince a reader that their reading fiction, 32 fiction contradictions were added to the Latin Vulgate New Testament :

  39. And now as this war-hawk Christianity, has been the only state religion throughout Western history, all published Bibles are identical in thought to the Vulgate Bible. To compare the Vulgate to your Bible go to: http://www.drbo.org/

    PACIFIST: “Every man – government with its deadly force he must be in submission to. Never for an absolute is there force that kills if not under God. The reason being by God it is allowed to prove the corruption of it… Because of this then also taxes pay to government authorities who rule by deadly force. For the Lord allows it to exist to establish something, for their terrorism in this way continues without end.” Ro 13:1 ancient Greek manuscript

    WAR-HAWK: “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God… This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.” Ro 13:1 NIV

  40. There is the old Gaddafi and the new Gaddafi. For up to 15 years ago he was recognized as the most progressive and just ruler in all of the Middle-East and Africa. His people had the best housing and healthcare, his massive irrigation system was revolutionary. Then his sons motivated him toward Western capitalism, which gave him no choice but to support Western plunder by brutal imperialism.

  41. This is what Gaddafy did to the people of Libya. and why it had to end, according to a post I was sent, but haven't verified..

    1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
    2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
    3. Home considered a human right in Libya
    4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family. Is this what you call a dictator Traditional wedding in Tripoli, Libya
    5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.
    6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms are all for free.
    7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it is not only free but they get US$2,300/mth accommodation and car allowance.
    8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.
    9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
    10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
    11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
    12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
    13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000 14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15
    15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree
    16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
    Add to the above Women were full and equal participants in Libyan society. Under the ultra religious fanatics (we backed) out of Benghazi women will at best become second class citizens or at worse, property.

  42. Almost all of this is absolute lies. You got this e-mail forwarded to you and post it without checking anything?

  43. Here's another: https://www.facebook.com/notes/soumiea-abushagur/

  44. Some of these lies have been addressed here: http://khadijateri.blogspot.com/2011/10/and-truth

    And David, have you seen any video of Libya? Why would the entire population be so euphoric at getting rid of Qaddafi if he had treated them so well? The women suffered just as much as the men all those years – and in these past 6-8 months. Don't you see them out there celebrating and cheering in Benghazi?

  45. And did you hear Mustafa Abdul-Jalil yesterday saying that they wanted to get rid of interest on loans (usury, which is prohibited in Islam)? Did you hear the people cheering when he said that? If all the loans there already have zero interest, as your post claims, why would this be mentioned?

  46. Hey umma-know-it-all stop spamming by refering to facebook and blogspot. Either you go to Libya and witness or ask Lizzy Phelan a real journalist who have been there.
    youtube.com/v/RFvpfkUyBqE

    Thank you David4Peace

  47. Please read this from someone who knows about life under Qaddafi – not someone who checked Wikipedia…
    https://www.facebook.com/notes/caroline-tilden/an

  48. Hey Fake-ulla I’ll bet if you go to live in Libya i 2 years time you dig up the fake Daffy and kiss his behind. But you are a fakezbook (cia)troll, are’nt you???

    Thanks David4peace

  49. watch this all except fake1troll
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj34nc

  50. Here's a comprehensive response t the e-mail, I hope it gets circulated as widely as that silly e-mail.
    https://www.facebook.com/notes/libya-outreach-gro

  51. One more for the fakezbook troll! Yippee. As though no other source of information. Kudos to ullabolla

  52. of course african and black people world over don`t support the racist thugs who lynch any black person they find and don`t give me this crap about all of them being mercenaries for gaddafi. we saw with our own eyes u people terrorizing a group of nigerian and ghanaian migrant families who came there to work or cross over to europe. not to mention the entire razing of a whole town full of black libyans called tawargha.

  53. btw, i hated gaddafi just like i hate all dictators in africa but your so called rebels have shown themselves to be even worse.

  54. Video of racist Libyan rebels terrorizing a group of west African migrant workers:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslPrRLaQDI&fe

  55. more videos of libyan racists:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBuGeO33Pgo&fe

  56. Innocent nigerian worker murdered by libyan racist rebels:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHBq8-xyLs&fe

  57. here are the WHO stats on Libya:
    http://www.emro.who.int/emrinfo/index.aspx?Ctry=l

  58. Errr, actually, the FIRST crusade was launched in the 6th Century from Constantinople against North Africa and Rome itself at a time when the roots of modern antisemitism were sinking into the West's common consciousness. Trinitarian, or Crusader, Christianity was at the time surrounded by monotheistic, or unitarian, or Arianist Christians – in Germania by the Astrogoths and Visigoths and the Franks, by the Astrogoths in Spain and by the Vandals in North Africa. Western historian Hans Kuhn describes them as “Jewish Christians” because they recognised Jesus as the Messiah, but not as God, and they observed kosher. Justinian was the Emperor of Constantinople at the time. His rule saw the imposition of Trinitarian Orthodoxy, the codification of Roman Law, and the implementation of inherited privilege and squallor (depending on which side of the castle gate you were born) that became known as European feudalism.

  59. cntd. Justinian, like Clovis of the Franks and Constantine, later became known as one of the three great champions of Trinitarianism, but all three men were baptised by Arianist bishops on their deathbeds. It was Justinian who launched the first crusade – to rid Africa and Rome of the Goths who had burned down Rome in 410AD (the Visigoths) and had ruled there ever since. A fallout between the Visigoths and the Astrogoths (who became known as the Vandals after they’d taken over the Roman provinces of North Africa by 439AD) saw the Vandal Jewish Christians burn down Rome again in 455AD. The first crusade against North Africa happened in 533-4AD, when Justinian invaded and conquered them. Justinian then also invaded the Roman peninsula with the intent of restoring Rome to its former glory and ridding it of the Goths and bringing it under his control. cntd

  60. cntd. Rome was besieged at least three times by the opposing Christian sides, taken and retaken, until finally Justinian’s forces under Belisarius were victorious in 553AD. The victory of Trinitarian Christians resulted in the eradication of all mention of the Jewish Christians and their beliefs from orthodoxy implemented by the popes who also set about introducing monasteries that concentrated all learning under the “Catholic”church. This resulted in the Dark Ages and the subsuming of anti-Semitism permanently into Western consciousness, expressed nowadays in hatred of Islam, the perfection of Gods revelation as started through Abraham, the non-Jewish common ancestor of the Jews and Arabs. Justinian died just five years before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be unto him) in 570AD. Within 100 years of his death, the crusader Christians had been thrown out of North Africa, the Middle East and Spain and would remain expelled until World War I when the Ottoman Empire was overthrown by coordinated attacks by Britain, France and Russia. This ushered in the era of colonisation that was briefly expelled under Gadaffi in Libya. It has now returned._

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