Earlier this week Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu once again claimed that when they attacked the Mavi Marmara peace convoy on May 31 in international waters, the high-seas Israeli pirates — euphemistically called "commandos" — were acting in self-defense. The Israeli Pirates murdered at least 19, wounded dozens more, and "arrested" (kidnapped) many others.
By Mr. Netanyahu’s interesting logic, when a tanker crew resists Somali pirates, the pirates would claim they were justified in murdering, wounding, and/or kidnapping the tanker crew because the pirates — not the crew — were acting in self-defense.
Similarly, when a homeowner resists home invaders, the invaders were justified in killing, wounding, and/or kidnapping the homeowner and his family and guests because the home invaders — not the homeowner — were acting in self-defense.
This flawed and self-serving reversal of logic is called "blaming the victim" and seems to be a favorite — if disgusting — ploy regularly invoked by Israeli Government spokes-people.
The REAL question is:
"Why do representatives of the Israeli Government regularly get away with such obviously flawed and self-serving arguments, unchallenged, in front of God, U.S. Main Stream Media, and the whole world?"
And, yes, of course the Israelis have the right to defend themselves – – – when they don’t use piracy, home invasion, etc. But so do the Palestinians.
I think it's been left unsaid in a lot of commentary but the boat was headed to GAZA. That's the supposedly unoccupied Gaza. It's a Palestinian autonomous zone, or at least it is ostensibly. So the Israelis do not have a right to check the boat just because they might be carrying weapons. That's absurdity. If that were the case, the Palestinians have the right to commandeer any ship entering into Haifa for weapons or any plane that lands in Tel Aviv.
Exactly, Mr. Alexander!
Sorry, Mr. Alexander, your programming seems to be failing. Please report immediatley to your nearest Hasbara Conditioning Center, for your own safety and well-being. It is a well known and self evident universal truth that israel is a special case and must be treated uniquely, except of course when it is not a special case and must not be singled out. Once your programming is corrected, you will be deliriously happy to accept these apparently contradictory positions simultaneously.
I await my reprogramming excitedly. I feel so strange right now questioning the intentions and logic of the Israeli state. I hate my brain!
Look at it like this , there's a defacto war going on between Israel and Hamas , ergo , all's fair in love and war .
BTW , Somali pirates and the Mavi Marmara ? obtuse and unequivical analogy . I think you both know it too .
I understand your dilemna Alexander and your conflict with logic .
You do? What can I do? Please help me Dr. R/T! By the way, I'm very impressed that you can diagnose me through the computer!
your words Mr. Alexander , it's your words , you have successfully communicated your thoughts on the issue have you not ? When logical minds are faced with illogic , one's immediate reaction should not be to hate one's own brain [ I got your sarcasm ] , but to look further ,for the origin of the illogic , no ?
Hence I see logic , where you find none .But then again my perspectve is based on a "broader view " .
Your argumentation is faultless. You call me illogical and claim yourself logical, and voila! end of argument. I'm going to try this out, it seems very effective.
And by the way, I would agree that it is a de facto war. I just wonder if you would defend the Palestinians in Gaza firing rockets into Israel in the same manner. Or does the all's fair in love and war stop at the Israeli border.
No Mr.Alexander , I did not call you illogical , I simply remarked at your struggling with it . We may even be on the same side of this issue .To answer your question though … I would absolutely not defend palestinians firing rockets into Israel from Gaza . Perhaps your presentation was a bit coy . I in fact find the Israelis perfectly logical in their action , including their reaction to being attacked by the occupants of the Mavi Marmara , which in effect was attempting to run a military blockade .
Okay! Bye bye!
I find the instigators of the flotilla to be the aggressors ,as they were warned and given an opportunity to complete their mission peacefully , but chose instead violent confrontation . Therefore i question the very motives of those behind the flotilla . especially it's main organizer , a member of the IHH . Also the condoning of such a flotilla by Erdigan who is vying for support in Turkey of the religious proponents of a non-secular govt . there .
Gaza is not "occupied , nor are it's inhabitants starving . Israel handed over Gaza and the first reaction by Hamas , was to totally destroy economic infrastructures for agriculture ,left behind by Israel, which could have accounted for almost a third of Gaza's GNP . Hamas was duly elected by the Palestinians based on their platform , thereby giving Hamas a mandate to proceed , according to it's Charter , The Hamas Charter , if read, clearly indicates the goal to destroy Israel and take all the land from "river to sea " ,and the removal of jews from the land . Hence it is logical that they carry on their attack with rockets , according to their own ethos .
Ergo , the blockade is perfectly logical , and the attempt to run it and attack the boarding party , illogical .
In summation I find the author of this article we are commenting on, to be disingenous at best , and highly biased to the point of ignoring reality and inventing incongruous and self serving analogies .
Hey POT, aren't YOU calling the Kettle, "Black-Ass"? In my own opinion, the Kettle is not Black-assed. It appears to me, that you are in fact, attacking the Messenger. You come off as being extremely biased and prejudiced. Now, I will continue reading………
btw …no one was "kidnaped " they were detained and send back to their respective countries . If not , what was the ransom ? A Sovereign Nation defending itself is not "piracy " . I suggest the author get his terms correct .
Since Israel gets more "AID" , money from the USA, than any other country in the world, they are commonlt thought of as our "adopted child". Why should they get ANYTHING from us, and why should they be singled out? By the way, since you speak so authoritatively on what is going on in Gaza, I must assume that you have lived there.
Sir,
I was born and raised in that part of the world (East Africa). I have family members who know people who know some pirates on first name basis. The (my family back home – i am state side) tell me, the real pirates are absolutely disgusted with your comparison and accuse you of moral relativism and smear campaign.
They want to make it clear to you, since you appear confused or dishonest about the matter, that they are a purely criminal entity. Unlike the Israeli navy who they called "humanity's enemy"
all best
SaltMiner
EXCELLENT POST!….and unlike others, you have the authority to speak so.
lol…moral relativism in total chaos . man what confusion abides here !
Somali pirates shopuld be " hung by the yardarm " and who in the heck cares what they think about anything .
R/T, “obtuse” and “unequivocal” don’t easily modify the same noun.
And, clearly, the analogy was unequivocally between Somali Pirates hi-jacking ships in international waters and the the Israeli so-called “commandos” doing the same, not between Somali Pirates and the Mavi Marmara.
No wonder your comments are a bit obtuse.
Salt Miner,
I thought twice about using the analogy because my reading left me with the impression the Somali pirates, unlike the Israeli state-sponsored pirates, apparently eschew murder. So, to that degree, I apologize.
By the way, if you have access to articles on the more tribal (less violent) nature of these people, I would greatly appreciate a heads-up, and particularly, a link.
Thanks.
lrw
So would I! It has seemed to me for a long time now, that there is much more to this story than the Talk-Hate Heads are screaming at us.
R/T,
On reading your further comments, it’s pretty clear to even a cursory reader that you have bought into “Israeli Exceptionalism,” which is to say you seem to believe Israel can do things proscribed to others — like bombing Gaza, Lebanon, etc, (a naval blockade is an act of war, by the way) — but, because “it” is “exceptional” equivalent behavior in retaliation is claimed to be unacceptably evil and illegal.
Nice work if you can get it, but clearly the world isn’t buying it this time.
supra skytop,
If your comments were directed specifically at me, you can find some of my other stuff by googling (Yahooing, Ixquiking, etc.) “L. Reichard White.”
And thanks!
lrw
Israeli "exceptionalism really ? Is that what they call it these days ? I called the right of a sovereign nation , putting up a military blockade in order to curtail the flow of weapons and munitions to an entrity that it is , as I staed before , in a defacto war with / there is no sane comparison between the Somali pirates and the miltary action taken by the Israelis , nor was it at all logical for the phony flotilla to confront the blockade . 1000 trucks a week go binto Gaza from Israel at the Rafa crossing . The flotilla could have discharged it';s cargo where directed and accomplished it';s mission , if it was truly humanitarian . Launching missles is an act of war , in case that escaped your attention , as too is crossing a border shooting up a patrol of soldiers and kidnapping the survivors ,as was done by hezbollah . Your view is a bit narrow .
To you R/T ……A Sovereign Nation?
I met a Palestinian in Abu Dhabi, who reached into his pocket and fetched out the key that he always carries with him. It was the key to his front door. His home was stolen, pirated, TAKEN FORCIBLY from him. You see, on May 14th, 1948, the Allied Nations, STOLE from the people of a Sovereign Nation, the PALESTINIANS, their homes and nation, and unjustly gave to people who were born in other countries, the property that they pirated and seized from those people, the people of a Sovereign Nation….or so they thought.
I ask you this.
If there are people who have been targeted, killed, maimed and slaughtered by other people,
do I or any others. or any Sovereign Nations, or an allied collection of Sovereign Nations, have the right to seize your lands, your properties, your means of livlihood, or your home?
If so, then I thank you.
I can think of millions of such peoples who are, at this moment being tortured, starved, imprisoned and killed en mass.
Please send me your address and your keys.
I will forward them.
btw , launching 8000 rockets to date , from Gaza into israel , underv the auspices of Hamas , is a casus belli the last time I looked , unless of course that you White , might settle on a higher number before you logic kicks in . Just as , Hezbolla launching a raid across the border of a sovereign nation , attacking a military outpost , killing and kidnapping it's soldiers is an act of war . And that TOO , coming after a series of rockets fired into Israel from Lebanon .
Yes White , actions like those are usually follwed by consequences, and it is totally logical to assume such , regardless of what the "world buys " , for the "world " usually "overlooks " the actions that CAUSE those consequences .
Btw , get out your dictionary , my use of the words "obtuse " and " unequivical " were used correctly , in describing the moronic analogy of somali pirates and Israel's action on the Mavi Marmara , whether that analogy was a sarcasm or not .
It' seems White , that you should have thought yet a third time before foisting such a ridiculous analogy …..but you didn't .
So, White , what do you think of Hezbolla amasssing 20,000 armed forces , munitions , missle placements , of course in the proximities of hospitols , schools , shiite villages , right under the nose of the UN ?
As usual if Hezbollah initiates anotherrwar as it did four summers ago , it will foirce Israel to defend itself and thereby strike those missle sites …and there will be civilian casualties .
Do you consider this a provocation ? Or a threat ? And what about the Sovereignty of Lebanon itself ? These are not Lebanese troops lining up on Israel's northern border , but proxies of Syria and Iran ….or would you choose to turn your head away again , on this issue too ?
R/T,
What is obvious is that you have half the facts, and most of those are exaggerated or out-right incorrect. It’s also obvious that you think you know what’s going on in that area of the world – – – which means either
1. You’ve been duped by the quite extensive and uncountered Israeli propaganda and don’t know it or
2. You are an Israeli partisan, paid perhaps?
Either way, just having the other side of the story told makes you angry. I find that – – – interesting.
By the way, if you and the Israelis learned anything from the last Lebanon incursion, you won’t try that kind of naked aggression using someone like Shalit, poor pawn, as an excuse again..
Why Goliath is the Underdog #001. Here: http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2006/10/30/why-goliath-is-the-underdog-001/
By the way, I used to admire the Israelis back in the sixties for the way they eliminated El Al hijackers. They were well within their rights in those days.
These days, I have to keep reminding myself that it’s the Israeli GOVERNMENT, NOT the nice Jewish folks, who, similarly to nice Americans, aren’t responsible for what these despicable organizations are doing to innocent men, women & children.
AND they’re doing it to A LOT MORE innocent men, women & children than are their purported enemies. Which probably explains why they both have these enemies in the first place.
If anyone really wants to help the nice Jewish folks – – – and nice Americans — they had better help them get their governments under control. And soon!
As far as your criticism of the analogy (two different groups of people attacking ships on the high-seas both being pirates) goes, let me translate:
Obtuse: dumb, ignorant, stupid, imperceptive, insensible, undiscerning.
Unequivocal: absolute, certain, decisive, definite, straightforward.
Your obtuse criticism was that the analogy was both obtuse and unequivocal. In that order.
As I said, “obtuse†and “unequivocal†don’t comfortably modify the same noun at the same time. I think you can see why.
Your argument and editorial falls apart White . And it should be recognized for what it is , a biased and opinionated statement which ignores the facts , for the sake of your own personal feelings regarding Israel . Next time try not to drtag "God …and the whole world " into it .
Funny you should feel that opposing your opinionated article assumes "I'm being paid " . That's a familiar rant though it is another argument altogether . I see you would rather arguer over grammar than the actual facts which you have butchered and distorted . The Mavi Marmara ,as well as the flotilla was orchestrated by a man named Oskosi a member of IHH , and as I stated earlier ,if the mission was truly "peacefull and humanitarian " then the ship would have proceeded as directed to Ashdod , rather than run a military blockaded. BTW , this is not as you contend , "piracy on the high seas " . And no , I'm not an Israeli , nor a paid agent , but an American whose paid his dues in Southeast Asioa ion '68 , and traveled the world 8yrs as a merchant sailor . I've been to those places you claim to have prescience of , I've witnessed what you can only make comment from afar of . I deal with the facts , something you have already ignored and dismissed .
It is clear to me , that your opinion on this issue is purely personal , as your own words indicate a personal animus towards Israel , thus disqualifying yourself from any rational , objective discussion on the issue of the "flotilla " .
And since you have "latched on " to a word I have used – "obtuse " , feel free to misuse it all you want . That by the way is a sign of a "parrot mentality " which is probably is the cause of your "great loss of Admiration " which really wasn't there to begin with .
Do try to learn the facts and do your homework , before attempting to be an "editorialist " on a given subject .
btw , I did refute your incorrect statement , that the Blockade was an act of war , since it was precipitated by 8000 rockest fired into Israel , and the previous interdiction of an arms laden ship headed for Gaza , the Katrine . care to counter ?
And since YOU brought up the Summer War , I guess you simply glossed over the event that initiated it , no counter-argument there either eh White ?
And what about the buildup of arms , munitions , missile and 20,000 Hezbolla fighters on Israel's northern border . It seems " the world " ruled on that visa-vis the UN in forbiddinbg such , but I guess they as well as you share the same "tendencies to turn your heads away " from the facts , until of course hezbolla eventually makes a move , you will no doubt be right there to criticize anything and everything Israel does when it's borders and sovereignty again get violated .
Keep your day job White .
R/T,
You, along with the other Israeli propagandists, conveniently miss, omit and deny facts inimical to your biased position. Understandable given your goals.
We could start with the well known but not officially admitted fact that, unlike any of its neighbors, Israel has operational nuclear weapons, perhaps as many as 400. Does the name “Mordechai Vanunu” ring a bell?
And you and the other pro-Israeli propagandists also regularly blame your critics for doing what you do, which, subliminally invoking “Israeli Exceptionalism” is also a glaring marker of propaganda — and extremely dishonest. For example, criticizing other countries for having allies on their territory and amassing military weapons.
Israel, for example, has amassed — in addition to its nukes — all sorts of military hardware which none of its neighbors have even remotely equaled. Particularly, the Palestinians in Gaza who don’t even have an air force.
These amassed weapons are supplied mostly by its ally the U.S. Government — sworn to come to Israel’s aid by treaty — and reluctantly financed by U.S. taxpayers — Israel gets more U.S. foreign aid than any of the other 195 or so countries on earth.
So clearly Israel does exactly what you attempt to castigate it’s neighbors for. This is specially gross in the case of the Palestinians when Israel regularly strafes, bombs and snipes all sorts of Palestinians in their own country. With it’s U.S. supplied Air Force.
The unguided missiles from the Arabs are a very poor substitute for the guided missiles, air operations, etc. from Israel. Israel kills something like 20 Palestinian men, women and children to 1 Israeli.
So, once again you are subliminally assuming Israeli Exceptionalism (which is usually also applied to similar U.S. Government depredations).
Perhaps you’re just not sharp enough to recognize the extreme hypocrisy of your position? Or, as a propagandist, you don’t care?
If you don’t make the claim Israel is exceptional in this sense, then it would be OK for the Palestinian Authority, Iran, Syria, etc. to blockade Haifa and prevent Israel from getting any of those U.S. supplied weapons. And to bomb Dimona. Wouldn’t it?
And as far as your propaganda goes, volume — especially flawed volume — does not make your biased argumentation any better.
You ill advisedly cite the U.N. Question: How many U.N. Resolutions has Israel violated? HINT:
You can find a list here: –Israeli Violations of U.N. Security Council Resolutions
You may be surprised to find that there are a bunch of nice Jewish folks who agree with me.
So, R/L, do they pay you? Yes or no.
Still you haven't addressed my counter-arguments , and still you lack the originality of using your own words by adopting mine …some debater eh White . Wanna continue your juvenile rant that I'm being paid ? C'mon White speak like an adult . . There is no hypicrisy in my position . hamas , since it took over Gaza hgas been firing rockets into Israel …do you deny that ? Hamas since it took over Gaza has been smuggling weapons in to Gaza to support their defacto war with Israel ..do you deny that ? Thge flotilla if it were truly a "peacefull humanitarian actiuon " could have and should have proceeded to Ashdod , where the cargo would have been delivered to Gaza via truck through the Rafa crossing …do you deny that ? The Israeli boarding party was immediately attacked by the "pasasengers " upon landing in the ship , as the videos which everyone has seen c;learly indicate …do you deny that which your own eyes have seen .
lol….and you say what ? That I'm "subliminally assuming Israeli Exceptionalism " …lol..do you make this stuff up as you go White ??
I look at the facts objectively minus any predisposed bias , as in YOUR case . Perhaps you ought to do a bit of EARNEST investigation , such as reading the Palestinian National Charter , The Hamas Charter , and the Hezbolla Proclaimation ….these are real documents , all calling for the Destruction of israel …do you think they are "make believe " ? Do you even pay attention to what Hamas , and Abbas as well as nasrullah are saying ..PUBLICLY ? Or do you chooase to keep your head in the sand . Israel has the RIGHT to EXIST , and the RIGHT to DEFEND itself . Regardless of your skewed and biased view of reality . I need not be paid to hold that position , all one need is an objective and unbiased mind . [ which you lack]
Do the Palestinians have the RIGHT to EXIST – – – and the RIGHT to DEFEND themselves?
Or is it, in your mind, only the Exceptional Israeli Government that has that right?
Humor this kid and give me a straight answer this time.
R/T,
I see you like the technique of throwing as much excrement at the wall as you can and seeing which will stick.
OK. Well, let’s see if we can sort a bit of that out.
As to the cause of the last illegal Israeli attack against Lebanon (~4 years ago), you might find Ex U.S. Ambassador Peck – – – and Hezbollah’s Nasrallah – – – enlightening.
Here:
“Ambassador Peck & Nasrallah on Hizbullah vs Israeli kidnapping” http://www.youtube.com/v/CpSNvI7YG30
R/T (continued)
As far as what REALLY happened in the attack on the Mavi Marmara, how about an eyewitness account from an ex U.S. Marine who was there instead of your pro-israeli inspired confabulations?
See here:
–Israel Slandering American ex-Marine. Semper Fi, Ken! Your Turn to Speak
If you have even a crack in your closed mind, these counters to your biased positions should at least give you pause. Perhaps the other pro-Israeli propaganda is equally as flawed?
You still haven't addressed the very issues YOU brought up ….the attack on the Mavimarmar was NOT and cannot be analagous to "pirates on the high seas " …Israel's Blockade is not an "act of war " .as you put it , in addition you have ignored the veery reason the blockade is there , as you also ignore Hamas' launching rockets ,
Pro -Israeli ? No , pro reality . You have countered nothing . The purpose of the flotilla was first and foremost confrontation rather than humanitarian , else the flotilla would have proceeded "peacefully " to Ashdod as directed . The occupants on board the Mavi Marmara were not pacifists , as I staed quite correctly , the sponsor was Oskosi and the IHH .
As for any occupant being truthfull as top the events which led to the violence , what would you expect them to say , after arming themselves with anything they could get their hands on and using such as soon as the firstr Israeli touched the deck .
So now you will defend "Ken "? and uter "semper-fi " ? How disingenuous of you !
LOL…in the course of our discussion you have trasheds your own country and its military , as well as it's foreign policy , and now you change course 180 degrees , and back what an ex-marine on board says ? You are the sucker for propaganda White . Or are you btrying to tell e the Israelis were NOT attacked upon boarding that ship ? I guess you've got selective vision huh White ? The "passengers binitiated the violence , and it was met with violence , plain and simple . And I guess "ken " was not "semper veritas " …and no wonder there at all .
As far as Peck and Nasrallah ? The two kidnapped haver never been recovered , and the 8 killed are still dead , and that action , genius WAS an act of war .
All you stated , simply proves that more than just YOIU are biased in your views . But I already knew that .
Better go do your homework on " Mr. Ken " , the expatriot , jailed by the Marines , and previously jailed by bthe Israelis for crossing into Gaza .
Would i believe a word he says ? Not a chance .Would i expect him to lie ? You bet .
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middl…
So , White , let's see if your alleged facts add up .
Hmmm ex-marine + ex-patriot = semper -fi ? LOL…surely you jest White !
Mr.Ken is known by the Israelis , because he previously slipped into Gaza and spoke with Haniya of Hamas + AND he agrees with their ethos of achieving their goal through violence , AND he is ON RECORD as stating such = peacefull activist ? Oh come now White ! You are the true victim of propaganda .
I gather White , that you do not cross-check your information before commiting it to words , and I'll bet your views are formed in the same way …out of ignorance of facts and misinformation..lol…otherwise known as propaganda .
….and a "straight answe r " for your rhetorical question – OF COURSE the Palestinians have a right to exist AND a right to defend themselves , BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE of NO RIGHT TO EXIST FOR THE ISRAELIS .
Again go do your homework – read the Hamas Charter , and the Palestinian National Charter , as well as the Hezbolla Proclaimation – ALL call for the destruction of Israel / ALL call for removal of Jews from the Land /ALL call for ALL of the land , NOT two states living side by side in peace .. I do not support ANY nation , organization , nor group of people that calls for the extermination of another , and offers religious license to killing them ….but it seems YOU do .
OK Folks, I have just started reading this blog. It appeared to be an interesting and promising discussion, until I realized that R/T had posted 11 comments before getting a reply. I stopped there, at the beginning of this blog, to post thiscomment to RT. R/T, you, sir, have an obsessive/ compulsive thing going on…just trying to alert you to this fact. Now, I will go back to the beginning and continue reading. This is indeed -promising to be a VERY interesting discussion….at least I am hopeful it is.
Mr Gandolf please take note , that I post without hitting the reply button whereas Mr. White chooses to do so even though it is just he and I arguing .
Sometimes life's "mysteries " are simply explained Mr Gandolf , besides if you have any interest in this discussion , you may also take note that there are only a limited amount of characters allowed in each post thereby neccessitating , a two or three part reply /
oh …and thanks for the "alert " and dont forget to hit the highlighted "reply " else you may miss alot of what mr. White is saying .
OK. Now I have finished reading and commenting on this blog. I am left with just one thought in my mind.
I cannot help but wonder R/T ,. if you are a person who has been planted.
If so, you alienate more than you appeal or compel.
If that is your purpose, you are successful.
I am a world traveler/liver.
I am a Mid-Western American, who was born and raised Catholic.
I have never disliked anyone from another Nation, faith, or of another race per say, as a whole, a group of people.
I had even, in my younger days, thought of going to Israel and living in a Kabutz.
Then, I lived in the Middle East for awhile, and got to know Muslims, Arabs, Indians, Pakistanians, Syrians, Egyptians, Moroccans and many more people from many more Nations.
If it were not for "J Street" I might have become a person who extremly disliked, mistrusted, and was totally disgusted, by Jewish people.
# J Street
J Street was founded to promote meaningful American leadership to end the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israel conflicts peacefully and diplomatically. … http://www.jstreet.org/
Thanks to J Street, and a couple of other groups that I have found, as well as, joined, I have not had to lower myself, my opinion of myself, or my character, to the level that I certainly would have sunk to, had I not found these groups of people. They are good open-minded Jewish people, who can and do, think for themselves. They are not the blind sheeple that follow the Hierarchists that are in control of their government.
You see, most people, clearly understand what is really going on in their countries as well as, in the world. Most people can, and do, think for themselves. Unfortunately the talk-hate hierarchists control most medias, and so, most people appear to be apathetic, because they simply do not know where they can speak out freely, or where they can get unembeded news. I truly believe in the goodness of most people.as
Margaret Mead once said,."Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
A great source for unembedded news can be found at www,DemocracyNow.org
I have travelled extensively to the middle east , with my first voyage to Jordan, Aqaba in particular , thence on to Tel Aviv in '66 , and did so for the next 8yrs. I was in Chittagong when West Pakistan invaded East Pakistan and slaughtered millions of Shia and Hindus until India intervened . I 've been to israel numerous times and if you have been there you would know that Israelis are divided roughly 50/50 as to whether one can negociate with the Palestinians and actually have a two state solution and those who think it impossible . I really cannot express in words , how little I care regarding alienating YOU or anyone else for that matter . I simply observe and search out facts , then apply them to what I see. As far as the topic of this thread , you no doubt already know my position and why , so to attempt a denigration of that position based on a false accusation that I ' was planted " descends to the same juvenile level as White , making the accusation that I am "being paid " .
I have refuted Whites assertion that the flotilla was "innocent and peacefull " for the facts indicate otherwise . I have expoised his phony witness Ken O'Keefe , as someone who has previously slipped into Gaza and confered with Haniya of Hamas , and has gone on record [it's in the public domain ] that he favors the publicly expressed ethos and intentions of Hamas . I have enumerated the cvenants , charters and proclaimations of Hamas , hezbolla and Fatah , which are also available in the public domain , and can be read by anyone interested enough to make any sense of why these groups continue to attack Israel and its citizens , and their undeterred goal of it's ultimate destruction . Now if you wish to refute these , then by all means do so , and I will rebutt what you put up , for I have studied the situation for the bdetter part of 40 years , and I'm not a jew . nor am I a fundy christian , nor a right wing fanatic . I too believe in the "goodness " of people but I am also aware of the utter evil they can perpetrate .
I do however disagree , that people are apathetic due to not being able to speak out freely , but rather , due to intellectual laziness in trhat they do not search out the facts , for all media has spin , as you well know , especially in America ..there is right and left and so on ad nauseum . Look how easily Mr.White bought O'keefe's "altruism which is a farce , thus damaging his own credibility for foisting "ken ' up as "semper-fi" bonafide humanitarian . You see , that is White's choice however .
I believe myself no more intelligent than anyone else capable of typing words on a keyboard , and they no less capable than I , in ferreting out the facts of an issue . The issue of the flotilla and it's intentions is quite obvious to an objective observor , yet what are the differences in opinions based on ? The facts ? Or a predisposed bias , or a political ideology ?
A BIG clue as to where the main barrier to Israeli/Palestinian peace comes from:
Particularly note Netanyahu’s statement that, "I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in the way."
R/T, you waste a lot of your print attacking the character of your opponents and mistake those attacks for relevant content. With apologies to the legal profession, "When you can’t argue the facts, R/T, you try to shoot the messenger." I’ll give you that your later posts were much better, but still your interpretations tend to be hopelessly one-sided.
I’ll concede, though, that you at least DO seem to look at — if not read and thoroughly digest — the supplied links. That’s highly unusual in this kind of bare-knuckle joust. Right-on, brother!
Look, R/T, reading through your history and experiences, I’m reasonably sure you’re a well intentioned person, you’re just the victim of very sophisticated information warfare. There isn’t enough time or space in the current world for folks, least of all me, to change your mind. Shin Bet is very effective.
However, there may be other readers who learn something from this joust.
Given your handicaps, you did well. I was never rabidly pro-Israel as you currently appear, R/T, and it still took me decades to discover what the Israeli State has been doing to innocent Palestinian men, women and children for decades, despite how gross it is. Killing them by "collateral murder," for example. At least 20 of them to one Israeli killed.
Even smart folks can be quite thoroughly duped by state propaganda operations.
There’s no shame in your well intentioned attacks.
However, there are consequences – – –
So much for "making nice."
First, you rather reluctantly agree that,
To be fair, then, sir, your comment that "Israel has the RIGHT to EXIST , and the RIGHT to DEFEND itself" (R/T, July 17th, 2010 at 10:45 pm) needs to be modified (to avoid obvious "Israeli Exceptionalism") to "Israel has the RIGHT to EXIST , and the RIGHT to DEFEND itself BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE of NO RIGHT TO EXIST FOR THE PALESTINIANS." Do you agree?
In my old-fashioned universe, actions speak louder than words. Originally many folks (Hamas, etc.), as you say, called for the elimination of the State of Israel. In fact, the original founders of Israel were officially classified as "terrorists" by the British, for example. But almost nothing succeeds better than a fait acompli.
So now, The State of Israel is a going concern. And there has been a lot of reluctant accomodation from the organizations you cite: Most no longer call for its abolition. And there are all sorts of offers of more of the same.
None the less, their words DID call for Israel’s reversion to the original owners. Like returning the Palestinian’s ancestral home documented by Gandolph for example. And there were some violent actions taken by organizations — from the original Brits to Hamas — in that direction.
The current Israeli Government, on the other hand, may not have made public it’s words for destruction of non-Israeli Gaza and the West Bank, but it’s actions, once unmasked — as per Netanyahu in the opening clip — speak a LOT louder.
So, would you argue that the destruction of Palestinian homes with bulldozers (American Rachel Corrie’s death serves as a dramatic icon) — and Israeli "settlers" stealing them as per Gandolph’s post — is justified because of Israeli Exceptionalism? Or killing 20 Palestinians to one Israeli killed?
Apparently you would argue that not only should Israeli "Commandos" kill 20 to 1 but the Palestinians shouldn’t shoot back?
It seems, R/T, you subscribe to the Jean Luc Picard school of discourse. But unless you’re a starship captain, merely saying "it’s so" doesn’t "make it so." Like your claims of refutation.
Your claim of "refuting" Ken O’Keefe, for example. Eyewitnesses are, like it or not, where you find them. It seems Dr. Sweitzer and Mother Theresa weren’t available at the time. Do you really think you got a more honest rendition of what happened from the Israeli Government? If so, I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. I’ll give it to you cheap.
If you actually read Mr. O’Keefe’s piece, I don’t think you would be questioning his self-critical commentary.
I also don’t particularly admire inaccurate and/or "straw man" attacks, especially when someone tries to cast me as the straw man. For example, R/T, you claim,
A double Jean Luc! Don’t see those too often. I’m sure some folks indeed made that "innocent and peaceful" claim, but I wasn’t one of them — and I called it a "convoy," not a "flotilla." Search the thread for "innocent and peaceful" — as I did — if you don’t believe me.
Further, I personally have no problem with attempting to repell boarders on the high-seas. Private folks who go armed for self-defense in international waters may well be more innocent and peaceful than "commandos," don’t you think? R/T, you make this sort of mistake quite frequently.
You are apparently blinded and handicapped by your pro-Israeli State programming, which, I suspect, you’re not even consciously aware of. That’s not too surprising since the Israeli Government spends a lot of money and goes to a lot of trouble to keep it that way. Unfortunately, despite your claim that you "simply observe and search out facts , then apply them to what I see" (R/T, July 18th, 2010 at 6:57 pm) this means — because of the money the Israeli Government spends, particularly supressing the other side — you only see one side of this particular issue. And it shows in your output.
Another example:
The Encyclopædia Britannica disagrees with you – – –
So subliminally, you’ve self-invoked Israeli Exceptionalism. Apparently, in your mind, when The Israeli Government blockades something, it’s NOT an act of war, but for all others, it is?
And another – – –
Aside from asserting that you somehow know Mr. O’Keefe "agrees with their ethos of achieving their goal through violence, AND he is ON RECORD as stating such" (link please), seemingly you don’t realize that the Israeli State "believes in achieving their goal(s) through violence" too? Or is it just that it’s OK for the Israeli State — but not for others? You know, "Israeli Exceptionalism?"
Further, what’s wrong with folks talking to the elected leaders of Gaza? And why did O’Keefe have to slip into Gaza? Why couldn’t he just present his documents to Gaza officials at the border and walk in — or hop a skiff and land directly on Gaza’s beach according to Palestinian Authority rules? You see something wrong with that?
OK, then, similarly, the Palestinian Authority should be able to pass or fail all those who wish to visit Israel. And check all cargo going into Israel for it’s list of embargoed goods and weapons. And Mr. Obama should be forced to "slip" into Israel if he wants to talk to Mr. Netanyahu because Obama’s an ally of the Israeli Government — which is at war with the Palestinian Authority — as Netanyahu exposed above.
Or do you once again invoke Israeli Exceptionalism?
I thought so.
These are only a few examples. The same bias is glaringly obvious in nearly all your posts. As I suggested above, though, that’s not all your fault.
Now as I (and Gandolph — thanks for the J-Street link, Gandy) have noted there are a lot of nice Jewish folks — and others — who agree with us.
If anyone cares to acquaint themselves with some of the more effective, I’d suggest first and foremost, Norman Finkelstein, (author of " Beyond Chutzpah") who was, essentially, fired for telling the truth. Here’s a good place to start:
Incidentally, Shlomo Ben Ami is a former Israeli Prime Minister — and, as it turns out, he largely agrees with Mr. Finkelstein.
There’s also seminal linguist and legendary political activist Noam Chomsky. His debate vs. Dershowitz is as usual, classic. Here:
And this small attempt to help – – –
Finally, as far as you being a paid partisan, I doubt it, but you never out-right denied it for most of the thread, which, for your future reference, appears very suspicious. And it’s not an off the wall suggestion.
So, R/T, I’ve spent as much time on this joust as I can spare. From now on, you’ll have to sharpen your blades on your own whetstone – – – or perhaps someone else will join the fray.
By the way, while there are limits on comment size on other blogs, I don’t believe that’s the case on antiwar.
I’ve accomplished what I set out to do, namely, get some attention on the largely suppressed story of what the high-handed Israeli State is doing to Palestinian men, women and children. Thanks for helping.
Well White , talk about "throwing excrement on the wall and seeing what sticks " [your words] , you've certainly unloaded a dumptruck full ,and withoutr refuting a single word I've said . In fact you ignore the fact that your argument on the flotilla got shot full of holes , including your ..lol…star witness " O 'keefe . You give away the nature of your mentality be hanging on to your accusation that " I'm paid ' …that says alot . Just what is you claim to have " accomplished " ? That you put up a biased editorial based in misinformation and ignorance of the overall situation ?
Indeed , you have accomplished that . Don't go blowing your own horn too loudly though White .
Atleasat by subtlety you admit O'keefe was not in fact the "altruistic peace activist you attempted tyo hold him up to be , question is , did you know that before I exposed the fact that he was jailed by the Israelis prior to his "flotilla routine " .
Hmmm. “withoutr refuting a single word I've said“? Not even ONE? Really? I think you're seriously over-working that Jean Luc Picard ploy, R/T!
And it seems you mistake me cleaning up all that excrement of yours — those 6 direct excremental quotes of yours that were scrubbed clean in that post — as my quotes. Unfortunately, most of what you threw up didn't stick that well and it's just lying there messing up the rug.
Also, I originally found your schtick — warning me my loafers are untied while tripping over your own shoelaces — entertaining, but now even that's wearing a bit thin.
Oh! Sorry, R/T — I know you have difficulty understanding analogies, but most other readers will get it.
As for Noam Chomsky , I've heard his debates with Dershowitz , and would not declare him the winner in any way , he is an avowed apologist for the palestinians , and overtly anti-Israel .But I guess some people are impressed with a professors credentials , Dylan warned along time ago in line , about "the mongrel dogs who teach " .
I'll stick to THE FACTS on the ground White , and as you so easily brushed off those words contained in the charters and proclaimaitionsof hamas , hezbolla and Fatah , I can see you are in a state of denial , since ACTIONS have indeed followed those words and still do ..
As for O'keefe , simply google his name , IT IS a matter of public record , and to assist you in your reading comprehension , I left no doubt and did in fact deny that I was "paid or planted " .